 | Home > Puma (Tdci) > Another output shaft..... |
 
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| Julie Member Since: 07 Oct 2017 Location: Nantes Posts: 482   
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in Germany they composed a list with 50 Defenders. Failue : no failure is almost 50:50. 
2.2 are a little more affected: http://www.blacklandy.eu/blboard/forum/sho...schenwelle |
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10th Jul 2018 8:11pm |
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| DSC-off Member Since: 16 Oct 2014 Location: North East Posts: 1400  
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Hi all,
It would be very useful to establish the average failure mileage for each model year, to help predict a safe time to change the shaft. There will be big variances depending on use, but with enough data we should be able to establish a trend. I suspect JLR have already done this, and know why the shafts fail but there's no chance of it being made public. Likewise, if we know that certain (all?) model years can regularly reach high milage without failure, it would give a balanced view and evidence for not making a pre-emptive change. I think we need the following info to make a worthwhile analysis: 1, year of manufacture 2, engine type 2.4 or 2.2 3, milage at the FIRST shaft failure, or a statement "not yet failed" 4, Has an Ashcroft modified part has been fitted (Y/N), and how long has it lasted? Anything else that would be handy to know? I'd be willing to collate the data in a spreadsheet and publish the results. Maybe it needs a new thread for the survey? |
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10th Jul 2018 11:42pm |
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| apt100 Member Since: 05 Mar 2015 Location: Derbyshire Posts: 1547 
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DSC-off
I think we also need to know of subsequent failures as well as first failure? If someone has had two (or more failures) in a fairly low mileage it adds to the theory of a fundamental problem (such as mis-alignment etc) rather than it being more of a random problem. It is time we used the collective power of the internet to really get to the bottom of this  |
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11th Jul 2018 12:58am |
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| Retroanaconda Member Since: 04 Jan 2012 Location: Scotland Posts: 2642 
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What’s to get to the bottom of? It’s crappy engineering arising from the bodging of the Ford drivetrain into the Defender.
Drive it until it gets clunky and/or fails, then swap with the Ashcrofts one and forget about it  |
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11th Jul 2018 7:05am |
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| ian series 1 Member Since: 17 Nov 2014 Location: south Posts: 3127 
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What he said ^^^
If You were to get any outcome from JLR, it would have happened by now? They are well aware of the problem, and they've done well to bury their head in the sand, and ignore the issue, Other than slap some runny grease on the last few. The Defender is a few years out of production, warranties are all but expired, it’s just a dinosaur that’s had its day, No way on this Earth will JLR put a recall on this now. If your lucky, you will get a few days warning that your shaft is about to fail.... 80" 80" 86" 88" 90"
Wanted, Forward Control Anything considered. Last edited by ian series 1 on 11th Jul 2018 9:23am. Edited 1 time in total |
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11th Jul 2018 7:37am |
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| ian series 1 Member Since: 17 Nov 2014 Location: south Posts: 3127
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Also, you’ve only got to look at the way they did the workaround on the front axle recalls,
It wasn’t exactly precision! That’s right, we will bolt a crappy price of metal to them! I would love to see their fix for the shaft  80" 80" 86" 88" 90"
Wanted, Forward Control Anything considered. |
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11th Jul 2018 7:50am |
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| blackwolf Member Since: 03 Nov 2009 Location: South West England Posts: 17372 
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JLR has fixed the shaft problem, and the fix is that a sachet of Weicon paste is now included in the replacement parts kit.
This is their idea of a fix, and no matter how many shafts fail, or how much people bleat about it, JLR will absolutely not do anything else about this unless ordered to do so in a court of law, and that is highly unlikely to happen. You will not get any support from JLR once your vehicle is out of warranty. |
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11th Jul 2018 9:32am |
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| hornet Member Since: 04 Jan 2010 Location: Western Europe Posts: 361 |
It's not badly engineered. I calculated the surface pressure for teeth and tension of shaft with given dimensions of a shaft and a standard torque. The conclusion is that the dimension of the shaft is largely adequate. Meanwhile it's a hot discussion about the reason why some fail and some never fail. As a positive locking connection, greasing will only affect corrosion effects. There is no (should be no) friction at all. I am convinced that there are batches of not properly hardened and/or not correct in dimensions. If you look at the teeth of failed shafts you mostly see "crimped" teeth. This should not happen to proper case hardened steel. If someone gets hold of the genuine drawing by the manufacturer, I bet that a proper machined an hardened 43CrNiMo6 will last forever. Without grease if you want to |
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11th Jul 2018 3:00pm |
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| blackwolf Member Since: 03 Nov 2009 Location: South West England Posts: 17372
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^^ Agree completely with this, on paper the design is of adequate strength and should be fine, and there are other factors contributing to the failures.
I don't think that the failure mechanisms are understood, but IMO there will be some combination of materials defects, alignment or tolerance defects, and/or assembly defects causing these failures. Clearly there is a quality assurance issue since so many defective vehicles have been sold. |
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11th Jul 2018 3:57pm |
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| apt100 Member Since: 05 Mar 2015 Location: Derbyshire Posts: 1547
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It would be interesting to know the true percentage of failures. Is it like many things on the internet where the actual number is quite small, but only the people with a problem mention it - not all the ones who don't have an issue? I don't think anyone believes JLR are going to do anything voluntarily. If someone starts collating a list, I will happily put my details in. After all, it won't cost me a penny, so what's to lose. |
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11th Jul 2018 5:45pm |
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| JOW240725 Member Since: 04 May 2015 Location: Suffolk Posts: 7905 
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Mine is on it's third 5 1/2 years old 57k. James
MY2012 110 2.2TDCi XS SW Orkney Grey - http://www.defender2.net/forum/topic43410.html MY1990 110 200TDi SW beautifully faded Portofino Red - https://www.defender2.net/forum/post743641.html#743641 MY1984 90 V8 Slate Grey - https://www.defender2.net/forum/post744557.html#744557 Instagram @suffolk_rovers |
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11th Jul 2018 6:15pm |
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| Julie Member Since: 07 Oct 2017 Location: Nantes Posts: 482
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We are not gonna see anything from Jaguar Land Rover. They don't behave like manufacturers I love to buy products from. It's a real shame. This table with failures could help anyone estimate his/her proper risks of failure. I know that corrosion products are harder than steel/iron i.e. the rust grinds the spline down until there's almost nothing left. Mechanics makes the rest of the rounded spline parts fail in the end ...The Ashcroft replacement kit makes sense for me.
Yeah. Mine failed on 6 yrs 65 k. No clunks or anything suspicious. Once it just "slipped through" and no more moves with that %&"!§§$ car. Everybody - with genuine spline - be aware!  |
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11th Jul 2018 6:48pm |
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| DSC-off Member Since: 16 Oct 2014 Location: North East Posts: 1400
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We all agree JLR aren't going to do anything more about the problem now.
We have to live with the issue and pay to fix it. I'm wondering when is mine likely to break? Will it be on my way to the airport? Or to catch a ferry. While away on holiday? Or maybe in winter, in a remote area of the country? None of which I want to happen. So I want to make an informed choice about when to change it. Still a risk until then, but better than simply waiting for it to break. The blacklandy link in Julie's post (10/7) makes shocking reading. Many early failures on 2.2s. As APT says, it won't cost us a penny and we've got nothing to loose by giving info to a forum survey. Hopefully we'll all get something out of it. |
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11th Jul 2018 8:44pm |
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| blackwolf Member Since: 03 Nov 2009 Location: South West England Posts: 17372
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Mine's on its original and is 11 years old and just passed 225,000 miles. How come notionally identical parts differ so greatly? |
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11th Jul 2018 9:32pm |
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