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| Alive Tuning Member Since: 01 Mar 2010 Location: Louth Posts: 610  
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You know the situation, Pete. To do what we do takes hundreds of thousands of pounds worth of equipment, development tools, diagnostic tools, testing facilities, and or course thousands and thousands of hours of hard study. There are so many people out there selling remaps, It's confusing people, as they believe everything the sales people are telling them. There are people out there setting up as 'we tune any car' tuning companies from their parents house, with nothing more than their own car, a laptop, and a £650 slave tool. They pull the map off the car (God help them if they needed to BDM, or solder!), send the file over the internet to their master (who charges them £75 for a file lol!), and then write the tune back to the customers car. The customer thinks the chap who's with him is an absolute genius (assuming all goes well), and this is my point. It's the master who is doing all the hard work! I recently took on a dealer that had previously used one of these cheapo slave tools. He was shocked when he found out how much my dealer slave equipment cost, and that I was charging significantly more than the £75 per file he was used to paying!!! He said to me, How can I sell your maps for £250 and make any proffit? He now sells remap tunes at the same prices as I do, and makes a proffit. The main point here, is that he no longer has customer come backs (which ended up costing him more in time, rectifying the faults), and the reaction from his customers is always very positive, and so now he sells more! All of my dealers across the world, sell my remaps as 'Alive' remaps, as we have earned a reputation for outstanding quality, and my dealers 'sell' this to their customers, rather than making out it's their own work. The slave tools that Pete and I send to each of our dealers, cost 2600 EUR each, with an annual update subscription of 1000 EUR (Paid to the manufacturers, not us!). They are expensive because they are the best tools you can buy, and as such, the master tools we use are massively expensive in comparison to the slaves! As I understand it, Pete has a more relaxed approach to this, and some of his dealers sell his tuning under their own branding. The problem there is that this introduces other names into the tuning market, and all of a sudden, you find yourself in a scenario where you are potentially having to compete against your own slaves, who are selling discounted remaps, and hence forcing prices down. Real tuners are generally not cheap. They can't be, because of the overheads associated with our trade, with the cost of development, and always having to buy new equipment to keep on top of the latest developments. Remap tuning the 3.0 TDV6 and 4.4 TDV8 is a good example of investment, and It'll be a long time before we recoup the money from the investments we've each made for these vehicles. By the time we've mastered these, it'll be development of the Evoque tuning, which will no doubt require even more (expensive) advanced hardware, as the ECU manufacturers are constantly making things harder for us. My point is, you are buying a very high quality product, from someone who personally understands pretty much every major aspect of the engine on the vehicle you own. An understanding that has been gained by lots of hard work, and lots of hard cash! As respected tuning companies, we have our reputations to uphold, and we always need to be at the cutting edge of what's new, so we can continue into the future. We work hard to master these new challanges, and the next one comes along, and so it continues.
I hope after reading the above, you will better understand what we do, and why a good remap costs what it costs. As I've said before, anyone selling 'regurgitated' remaps is not giving as good a product as is available for similar money. If they are selling you a map from a files 'database' on their laptop, then they are making 100% proffit out of you, and laughing all the way to the bank! A simple, off the peg, generic remap can never be as good as one that is actualy tailored for a particular customer. |
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13th Feb 2011 11:31pm |
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| Bomber82 Member Since: 20 Oct 2009 Location: Alessandria - Italy Posts: 216  
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I was looking into the workshop manual for some info about electronic control, and I've found this...
The ECM performs self diagnostic routines and stores fault codes in its memory. These fault codes and diagnostics can be accessed using the Land Rover recommended diagnostic tool. If the ECM is to be replaced, the new ECM is supplied 'blank' and must be configured to the vehicle using the Land Rover recommended diagnostic tool. A 'flash' electrically erasable programmable read only memory (EEPROM) allows the ECM to be externally configured, using the Land Rover recommended diagnostic tool, with market specific or new tune information up to 14 times. If a fifteenth update is required the ECM must be replaced. That means we cannot change the map any time we want because after 14 times the ECM must be changed?? 
This included also the update done by LR dealer? Matteo Defender 110 Td4 SE MY 09 |
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14th Feb 2011 3:35pm |
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| Alive Tuning Member Since: 01 Mar 2010 Location: Louth Posts: 610
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This is only applicable to reflashes by LR dealers. Remap tuning flashes are not counted!  |
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14th Feb 2011 3:50pm |
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| bell-auto-services Member Since: 08 Jul 2007 Location: North Yorkshire Posts: 2232 
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This is also why a lot of owners are having to have a new ecu fitted now, because landrover dealers have used up the allocation space inside the ecu with run of the mill general updates made at service time or when the customer expresses concern about something and asks for an update.
The problem in asking for an update when your car is running fine is you are limiting the space left for when you really need it when their is a real problem. Generally when the car is out of warranty and the ecu will need to be paid for by the customer. That said some updates made with SSD version 122 have in some cases an issue from a programming error inside the tool, Topix lists this i beleive. If anyone is ever in this situation i can return a fully flashed ecu back to virgin state to save a new ecu cost and back order wait. Pete Last edited by bell-auto-services on 14th Feb 2011 4:00pm. Edited 1 time in total |
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14th Feb 2011 3:55pm |
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| T1G UP Member Since: 08 Dec 2009 Location: Bath Posts: 3101  
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Gary,
well i agree with all your valid points on costs, developement and the such like. i also agree with the slave selling your products cheaper than you statement. but lets use the td5 as an example. weren't you called td5 alive? how many remaps have you done on td5's? thousands if not tens of thousands. the developement costs have been well covered, and before you say it re invested into later technology. £345+vat for a generic base map that you then tweak to suit the spec! nice i understand the OEM software is getting alot harder to crack, the tdci seams to be throwing up a few problems of it's own which you guys are working through. good on you, theres a market. And i would only use a reputable tuner for my tdci /d3 /d4 etc but i'd expect for near on £600 a live mapping session with before and after powergraphs aswell as the little box to turn it all back again. been there done that with a rather tastily tuned golf gti dsg which was my last company car. Best of luck to you all, as i've said theres a market and you guys ,alive and BAS, seem to have it covered. i'll be sticking with my td5 for some time as i can fix this one myself. |
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14th Feb 2011 5:06pm |
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| WarPig Member Since: 04 Dec 2009 Location: Sheffield Posts: 1748 
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I know foook all about remaps, or any of the other companies mentioned in this thread, nor do I even own a puma. But if theres gunna be a big fight between everyone, Im on Pornys side as hes a top bloke
Fuel to the fire? |
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14th Feb 2011 7:54pm |
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| Bomber82 Member Since: 20 Oct 2009 Location: Alessandria - Italy Posts: 216
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Great! 
PS:did you received my mail??  Matteo
Defender 110 Td4 SE MY 09 |
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15th Feb 2011 9:10am |
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| AndrewS Member Since: 10 Apr 2007 Location: Hereford Posts: 3709 
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Well said my standard 130 cant even run without flat spots or destroying its self.
The my cock is bigger than your cock tuning debate is so  boring these days. I was involved in the very first one on the D3 site when I got a JE tune on my 54 D3 I was told by TurboChip now LRTuning that I was lying. stop stop stop, take a breath and relax 130's have feeling's as well you know  |
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15th Feb 2011 9:30am |
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| willy eckerslike Member Since: 15 Jun 2009 Location: North yorks Posts: 1789 
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Well i'll take one for the team, i'm giving my 90 to BAS for at least two weeks so Pete can have an in depth look at the TDCI set up, hopefully this may benefit us all tune or no tune. Original Member Pie n Pea Club.
110 HCPU Tipper |
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15th Feb 2011 9:46am |
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| Japseroony Member Since: 02 Jan 2008 Location: North East England Posts: 827 
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Hi Willy, I know we have had a minor "tete-a-tete" (think thats how you spell it) in the past but well done for this - Pete is a top bloke and probably (IMHO) the only one that can sort out any so called flat spots that believe me are there on a standard vehicle with the re-map just emphasising the problem. Anyone saying they are not there prior to a re-map does not know much about their own vehicle and should take it up with LR as I did, only for LR to admit to me that they could not fix the problem/issue!! Pete, we look forward to your findings Gas, Grass Or Ass - Nobody Rides For Free
"UNDERSTEER" ----is when you hit the fence with the front of the car. "OVERSTEER" ------is when you hit the fence with the rear of the car. "HORSEPOWER" ----is how fast you hit the fence. "TORQUE" -----------is how far you take the fence with you. |
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15th Feb 2011 10:03am |
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| willy eckerslike Member Since: 15 Jun 2009 Location: North yorks Posts: 1789
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Thankyou Jasperoony as you say minor and no malice intended or offence taken I know now you are genuine.
Petes also going to look at why my 2010my DCPU is so smooth and runs so well (at present)  Original Member Pie n Pea Club.
110 HCPU Tipper |
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15th Feb 2011 11:09am |
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| big steve Member Since: 24 Dec 2009 Location: hertfordshire Posts: 2456 
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im glad there are other people on here that agree that its not the tuning companys fault ??? 2015 2.2 tdci hardtop xs
3.2 conversion DONE 238bhp and 707nm torque and thats just the start ;-P hybrid turbo in build -done ready to fit ashcroft atb in transfer box 6 speed auto in build |
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15th Feb 2011 1:15pm |
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| bell-auto-services Member Since: 08 Jul 2007 Location: North Yorkshire Posts: 2232
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Any takers ? In thread or private Pm will do.
http://www.defender2.net/forum/topic5611.html Pete |
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17th Feb 2011 9:47pm |
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