markb110 wrote:

Nice one Bob

Now go and win the challenge - no pressure mate

Best wishes

Mark

Hi Mark

Didn't win but didn't lose either
Lost about 30% of the entrants on day one, one set of marshals slid totally out of control into a river and had to be towed out by a tractor and LRE team.

I ended up as driver and winchman, not sure how that happened

We finished both days and had a great time. I will do a full post when I have recovered.

Bob

PS even had snow this morning and could have a 2002 90 coming my way next week  2015 Jaguar XE240 R Sport - goes like ....... !!
2013 Defender 90 CSW - sold
2009 Defender 110 Double Cab - sold
2001 TD5 90 CSW - offroad project - sold to a forum member
2011 Porsche Boxster - for the sunny days !

bob neville wrote:

markb110 wrote:

Nice one Bob

Now go and win the challenge - no pressure mate

Best wishes

Mark

Hi Mark

Didn't win but didn't lose either
Lost about 30% of the entrants on day one, one set of marshals slid totally out of control into a river and had to be towed out by a tractor and LRE team.

I ended up as driver and winchman, not sure how that happened

We finished both days and had a great time. I will do a full post when I have recovered.

Bob

PS even had snow this morning and could have a 2002 90 coming my way next week

well done Bob - looking forward to the write up and photos

bob neville wrote:

Retroanaconda wrote:

I was under the impression that the transfer box as used on the current day Tdci Defenders is the same basic unit that Land Rover have been using since the early 1980s?

And why the secrecy?

Is it ? Ashcroft have just released one specific to the 2.4 engined puma

I posted the details about the part that failed, the rest of the conversation between the dealer and myself is between them and I.

Bob

They may have changed some internal components, but even looking on Microcat they've got the same input gear setup, same intermediate gear setup etc. It's the same box, in the same way that an LT230 from a Td5 is the same as one from a 1983 110.

So the splines on the output shaft of the gearbox wore away to nothing, the point I'm making is that this is a known issue with much earlier LT230s that has been considered 'fixed' since the late 300Tdi era with the introduction of the cross-drilled input gear. Of course a Tdci would have had this gear from new so there must have been some other fault to cause the wear. Perhaps a bad batch of gearbox output shafts that hadn't been hardened properly? Or a lubrication issue with the oil itself, rather than supply of oil to the splines.

You're within your right to withhold the reason for the failure (though I'm not sure why - I doubt it's something you're at fault for so you can only be protecting Land Rover) but there must be something else at play here the way I see it

bob neville wrote:

Retro

Very interesting point you have made there
To be honest, I don't know one end of a gearbox/transfer box from the other, that is why I always let somebody who does know them work on them for me.

I explained the issue to somebody who works for me today (he knows LR's inside out) and he said exactly the same as you, problem fixed circa 300tdi, cross drilling etc and I would trust him (and yourself) that this is in fact true. When he heard what I described his opinion was that the the Puma shafts are not cross drilled and hence the problem. I never asked (or was told) if the shaft is or is not cross drilled so can't tell you the exact reason for failure, I was just glad they fixed the vehicle so quickly.

One thing I did see was the smaller end of the shaft with the large splines on appeared to have plenty of lubrication, the failing end was dry (could have been wiped off) but the remaining splines looked as though they were rusty ?

I am sure somebody like Ashcroft can tell you if the shafts are cross drilled, if they are then the problem lives elsewhere.

There is nothing else 'at play', I am as intrigued as you are as to why the shaft failed. The true reason behind the failure was not disclosed. My opinion is that it is something that has been changed to mate the new gearbox to the existing transfer box and that something is not correct.

All I can say, is since the dealer did the work the whole drive train on my Puma has been transformed.

Bob

Thanks for getting back to me.

I would be very surprised if the Puma input gear was not cross-drilled...but Land Rover have done stranger things!

I hope we're talking about the same part here. I am referring to the output shaft of the main gearbox, which extends into the input gear of the transfer gearbox. It is hidden behind the PTO plate on the left of the handbrake drum as you look at the back of the transfer box from under the vehicle.

See here for an example of the play that can develop. You are looking at the output shaft of the main gearbox meshing (badly - due to wear) with the input gear of the transfer box. Note the shaft moving relative to the gear that surrounds it.



This play was caused by lack of lubrication to the drive splines on the inside of the gear where the shaft goes in. Later models of input gear had holes drilled through to allow EP90 into the splines and provide the necessary lubrication:



Is this the part you are referring to? The only other parts of the transfer box with splines are the two output shafts and the relevant prop shaft flanges that go onto them. There is no cross-drilling of these, but they run immersed in the oil. These are not known to wear particularly, and I have not personally heard of one failing.

What makes me want to clarify is your mention of the 'smaller end of the shaft'. The output shaft of a main gearbox should look like this (shown with the PTO plate and input gear removed from the transfer box):



Does that make any sense to you?

bob neville wrote:

We are talking about a different part

I have been searching for a picture and can't find one yet.

The last picture looks like the smaller splined end but I can't remember seeing the threaded section.
If that is the shaft the other end had three sections of splines with a full circular clip between two of them, it was these two section that had gone and were bone dry.

The challenge is now on to find exactly what was replaced

Bob

That explains a lot then! Looks like these newer boxes have some sort of other issue then.

Other splined components in the LT230 include:

Rear output shaft:


Front output shaft:


The centre differential itself:



That's the extent of the shafts within the LT230 (save the intermediate shaft but that isn't splined and doesn't rotate!). Any of those look like your suspect part?

If not, then I suspect perhaps we're confused between transfer box and main gearbox?

Fifth Horseman wrote:

Wonder if it could be the extension shaft - item 22 in the picture below.

Item 22 it is

The splines on the left hand end in the picture are the ones that had worn away and were bone dry.

I have been hunting high and low to find an exploded diagram somewhere.

Thanks FH.

Bob 2015 Jaguar XE240 R Sport - goes like ....... !!
2013 Defender 90 CSW - sold
2009 Defender 110 Double Cab - sold
2001 TD5 90 CSW - offroad project - sold to a forum member
2011 Porsche Boxster - for the sunny days !