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Dinnu

Member Since: 24 Dec 2019
Location: Lija
Posts: 3401

2012 Defender 90 Puma 2.2 CSW Santorini Black

I had made quite a bit of reading and I was informed quite well on this topic, as my 90 has a defective axle. But still this is another shock, especially on, the dare to say, bribing part. I have since painted my axle because I disliked the rusty appearance, but there were no oil stains in that area prior to painting.

I wish I have the balls of Payney (which I think should change the username to "Pay? Nee" - quite a few Dutch here that would understand it), but going through a law suit on an axle that has not yet failed would be very difficult. I do tow a rather heavy boat, and always with the 'What would happen in an emergency brake situation' at the back of my mind. As such replacing the axle case with a good friction welded one is in the plan for this winter.

Hats off to Payney. 1988 90 Hard Top, 19J Diesel Turbo, Shire Blue - Restoration ongoing
2012 90 CSW, 2.2TDCI, Santorini Black

15th Aug 2022 12:41pm

Dinnu

Member Since: 24 Dec 2019
Location: Lija
Posts: 3401

Race.it wrote:
Do we know when they outsourced this? Dates, did they bring it back in house later or does it affect all newer ones.

Anybody have photos of the cracks, my axel is not under sealed but could not see cracks but maybe looking in wrong place.

Good luck with the fight and thanks for publishing your findings so far

It is very easy to distinguish between friction welded (good) and mig welded (bad) axles.

Friction weld created like 2 rings around the weld. This is next (maybe 3cm away) from the swivel hub flange. With Mig weld, the joint there is smoother. Note that the horizontal welds, that join the upper half to the lower half of the axle have always been mig welded.. but do not worry about that.

2010 is most likely to have friction weld, but feel free to post a picture here and sure someone will be able to verify.

Having said that mig welded axles are bad, there was also an improvement in about 2013... so later vehicles should be ok. But not as good as earlier friction welded.

I have posted a picture of a late 80s friction welded axle here:
https://www.defender2.net/forum/topic33029-165.html 1988 90 Hard Top, 19J Diesel Turbo, Shire Blue - Restoration ongoing
2012 90 CSW, 2.2TDCI, Santorini Black

Last edited by Dinnu on 15th Aug 2022 1:43pm. Edited 1 time in total

15th Aug 2022 12:49pm

LandRoverAnorak

Member Since: 17 Jul 2011
Location: Surrey
Posts: 11324

Can you expand on that last comment there, Dinnu? What do you mean by "an improvement in about 2013...But not as good as earlier friction welded"? Darren

110 USW BUILD THREAD - EXPEDITION TRAILER - 200tdi 90 BUILD THREAD - SANKEY TRAILER - IG@landroveranorak

"You came in that thing? You're braver than I thought!" - Princess Leia

15th Aug 2022 1:26pm

Dinnu

Member Since: 24 Dec 2019
Location: Lija
Posts: 3401

Hi LRA, I guess you want to know what JLR (or Tata as referred to by Payney) did. I wish I know too, but for sure they kept mig welding them till the end. If it was a change in their robotic welding parameters, or did mechanical design change to have deeper welding or they fired the Indian guy welding the axles and hired a new one, I guess no one will know.

Payney1000 wrote:

Anyway after 6 months of the new axles coming form India Landrover were fully aware that their was a serious problem.

I believe that there were just over 2 years of badly fabricated axles... so I let you make your own conclusion also from what was disclosed by Payney.

See also some more of my comments on this part of the recall thread:
https://www.defender2.net/forum/topic33029-165.html 1988 90 Hard Top, 19J Diesel Turbo, Shire Blue - Restoration ongoing
2012 90 CSW, 2.2TDCI, Santorini Black

15th Aug 2022 1:42pm

Gasket

Member Since: 30 May 2020
Location: Manchester
Posts: 629

This is shocking, again all credit to Payney for sticking to his guns and mate - thank you for sharing this on the forum.

Is it worth just confirming (so that we can all run outside and check our Defenders before everyone starts panicking) that this is believed to only affect some of those axles that had been mig welded post 2010 and that the friction welded axles were unaffected.

Here is a picture of my front axle from a MY2010 D90 SW. If I've understood this and the other thread (https://www.defender2.net/forum/topic33029-180.html) correctly then a friction weld is identified by having a double seam. I think that mine is therefore unaffected, wish I'd known that before I bought and fitted the recall bracketry.

Click image to enlarge

15th Aug 2022 2:47pm

htb2

Member Since: 02 Nov 2018
Location: Carmarthenshire
Posts: 524

Gasket,
Yours is a friction welded axle so not affected by the recall.

David

15th Aug 2022 2:52pm

Payney1000

Member Since: 16 Feb 2022
Location: Brittany
Posts: 24

2012 Defender 110 Puma 2.2 USW Santorini Black

Guys please see the following photos.

This photo shows Mig welded to the left of the bracket.

Click image to enlarge

The following photo is my axle after it snapped very clean cut showing welding failure.

Click image to enlarge

This photo was straight after the crash at 60 miles a hour

Click image to enlarge

Hope that helps understand. 👍

15th Aug 2022 3:11pm

blackwolf

Member Since: 03 Nov 2009
Location: South West England
Posts: 17314

2007 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 DCPU Stornoway Grey

Gasket wrote:
... I think that mine is therefore unaffected, wish I'd known that before I bought and fitted the recall bracketry. ...

I know my '07 is friction welded and outside the recall but fitted the brackets nonetheless for peace of mind. It is disturbing how flimsy the running gear of my Defender is when compared to that on my 80" Series One.

15th Aug 2022 3:12pm

Gasket

Member Since: 30 May 2020
Location: Manchester
Posts: 629

htb2/blackwolf. Thank you very much.

Payney - that is awful. Thank goodness you got out of it safely.

15th Aug 2022 3:43pm

Payney1000

Member Since: 16 Feb 2022
Location: Brittany
Posts: 24

Gasket,
I wish i could say i was ok but not the case. I damaged my right shoulder and ripped the muscle from my chest bone to my shoulder. still reduced movement.

But here is some photos what it was like and still is lol

Click image to enlarge

Click image to enlarge

very lucky but if it was not for a ditch 5 foot deep full of water it could have been worse.

15th Aug 2022 4:00pm

blackwolf

Member Since: 03 Nov 2009
Location: South West England
Posts: 17314

Yes, the "what ifs" don't bear thinking about - a school party on push bikes in the wrong place at the wrong time, for example, although I don't suppose that JLR would be allowed to ignore the problem if that had been the case.

I am amused by the writing in the dirt on your rear left side panel, something of an understatement, I think!

15th Aug 2022 5:01pm

blackwolf

Member Since: 03 Nov 2009
Location: South West England
Posts: 17314

Payney1000 wrote:
... This photo shows Mig welded to the left of the bracket.

I would have hoped that the obvious flaw in the weld indicated below, complete with rust, would have rejected this axle during build. The near criminal negligence of all this makes me very angry.

Click image to enlarge

15th Aug 2022 5:05pm

Dinnu

Member Since: 24 Dec 2019
Location: Lija
Posts: 3401

Could have been a Tata supplier, who knows. 1988 90 Hard Top, 19J Diesel Turbo, Shire Blue - Restoration ongoing
2012 90 CSW, 2.2TDCI, Santorini Black

15th Aug 2022 5:17pm

Dinnu

Member Since: 24 Dec 2019
Location: Lija
Posts: 3401

blackwolf wrote:
Payney1000 wrote:
... This photo shows Mig welded to the left of the bracket.

I would have hoped that the obvious flaw in the weld indicated below, complete with rust, would have rejected this axle during build. The near criminal negligence of all this makes me very angry.

Click image to enlarge

Well spotted Blackwolf.

I would really love to see some close up pictures of the failed weld on Payney.

It is also disturbing that all failed welds I have seen are on the left side of the axle. What did they do differently on the right side? I would have thought that the right side is more stressed due to the higher unsprung weight by the final drive / differential. 1988 90 Hard Top, 19J Diesel Turbo, Shire Blue - Restoration ongoing
2012 90 CSW, 2.2TDCI, Santorini Black

15th Aug 2022 5:24pm

trevorg

Member Since: 28 May 2022
Location: Aisne
Posts: 51

2012 Defender 90 Puma 2.2 SW Indus Silver

Picked up on this thread, and unsure about the niceties of welding, so had a look under my 2012 90. There is a weld to each but with a single standing seam. Should I be worried?

Click image to enlarge

15th Aug 2022 5:38pm

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