Home > Puma (Tdci) > Output shaft failure, Forum Survey |
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Caterham Member Since: 06 Nov 2008 Location: Birmingham Posts: 6295 |
sorry if I'm being dumb and missing something here (I often do).
The previous theories I was referring to was the idea of mis-alignment being the cause. Siwynne then stated they had a replacement shaft installed using genuine parts including grease without failure over an extended period. I then stated that sort of blow the mis-alignment theory out of the water. If I'm not mistaken you've (Supacat) then suggested the problem is an obvious one ie if the OS was installed dry it would fail and if it's wet it won't (be that grease or oil) - at least that's how I've interpetted your comment? I've then followed up by saying my second failure was after a wet install (that being a genuine LR replacement including grease) and I'm confident in saying that is the case for many which I would therefore suggest simply being a wet install does not remove the likelihood of failure? |
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23rd Jan 2022 5:52pm |
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Supacat Member Since: 16 Oct 2012 Location: West Yorkshire Posts: 11018 |
Caterham ~ your 2nd failure was after a genuine replacement kit, yes that was a wet solution with the grease, but the point I have issue with the genuine replacement is highlighted in redb
I'll throw it out again: Is it correct that there's no known failure of the Ashcroft kit? Until there's a confirmed one, then the kit appears to solve the issue, and the issue it was designed/engineered to solve was a lubrication issue. Wet perhaps is the answer, but continually wet, not just an initial application of grease without any method of retaining it. Although, that has to be better than being dry. The Ashcroft kit talks of O rings to ensure the oil can be held/maintained in a wet condition. If misalignment is the primary issue, it's hard to see how the Ashcroft kit has been successful, given that the Ashcroft kit does nothing for alignment. I have to say that alignment may well play a secondary role in some of the failures, if the alternative is to believe JLR engineering integrity would rule this out! |
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23rd Jan 2022 6:17pm |
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Caterham Member Since: 06 Nov 2008 Location: Birmingham Posts: 6295 |
Supacat - please don't take offence here. this engineering stuff is above my pay grade as they say.
I concur with you comments, however perahaps if we turn your theory on its head...... why do we have some shafts of original install lasting 200k. my understanding is that the grease retention method has not changed. I don't disagree that the method for retention is not great so if we assume the grease is lost over time which I'm sure it is why would some shafts do 200k? Can I assume therefore you're suggesting mis-alignment and dry = failure and mis-aligment and wet = non failure ? |
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23rd Jan 2022 6:54pm |
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Caterham Member Since: 06 Nov 2008 Location: Birmingham Posts: 6295 |
one last thing to add to the comment above re; 'no known issues'
If I were a betting man I'd say Keith was our first known failure with the kit but that's merely me putting 2+2 together and perhaps getting 7 or 8 .....I thoughts the Russians were bad even if Keith was the first it appears the failure rates with the Ashcroft kit are very low which is a good thing. in my book nothing is 100% so even if there's the odd failure then thats to be expected in my books. with the LR / Ford connection in the puma defenders I don't suppose we can simply replace the shaft with a CV joint out of a 3.2 ltr ranger can we? |
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23rd Jan 2022 7:00pm |
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Caterham Member Since: 06 Nov 2008 Location: Birmingham Posts: 6295 |
perhaps we should ask these guys to knock up a double prop replacement shaft?
https://baileymorris.co.uk/complete-compen...cond-joint |
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23rd Jan 2022 7:03pm |
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Siwynne Member Since: 04 Nov 2016 Location: West lancs Posts: 578 |
I wasn’t trying to ruin theories but it appears to me that some parts fail for one reason some for another and some for a combination of many. Dry, misaligned and abuse by dire driving styles, heavy loads etc etc etc. if mine ever goes I’ll be fitting the Ashcroft one |
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23rd Jan 2022 7:07pm |
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Supacat Member Since: 16 Oct 2012 Location: West Yorkshire Posts: 11018 |
No offence taken, aren't discussions like this actually what the Internet and forums like this are best at/for?
I would hazard that in any population of failures, there will be outliers both on the low and high mileage side. That would just seem a normal distribution. Additionally, I did see some speculation as to whether these joints were greased prior to assembly, maybe some were and some weren't. A QC issue somewhere along the line?
My point would be that you cannot differentiate any non-failure from just a failure that hasn't reached it's particular mileage point on a normal distribution curve, i.e., it's a future outlier. With regard to me suggesting "mis-aligment and wet = non failure" then I'm not suggesting it's true, but rather posing the question and asking for evidence on the Ashcroft wet solution. All splined joints may fail over time/use/mileage. It's just a question of whether that interval seems reasonable. The Ashcroft solution may not solve the underlying engineering issue (if there is one) but if it extends the service life of the parts to what most will feel to be "reasonable" and at an economical price point then, does it really matter? |
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24th Jan 2022 6:56am |
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Caterham Member Since: 06 Nov 2008 Location: Birmingham Posts: 6295 |
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24th Jan 2022 12:58pm |
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Dinnu Member Since: 24 Dec 2019 Location: Lija Posts: 3403 |
Did not Landrover solve the worn splines on the LT77 and early R380s by simply drilling the TC input get so as to make the splines wet? 1988 90 Hard Top, 19J Diesel Turbo, Shire Blue - Restoration ongoing
2012 90 CSW, 2.2TDCI, Santorini Black |
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24th Jan 2022 1:05pm |
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htb2 Member Since: 02 Nov 2018 Location: Carmarthenshire Posts: 524 |
Did not Landrover solve the worn splines on the LT77 and early R380s by simply drilling the TC input get so as to make the splines wet?
Yes cross drilled gear IIRC |
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24th Jan 2022 5:25pm |
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Julie Member Since: 07 Oct 2017 Location: Nantes Posts: 463 |
And tolerances (i.e. misalignement) being part of each and every fabrication process. There are no "zero tolerances" |
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26th Jan 2022 7:35pm |
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Julie Member Since: 07 Oct 2017 Location: Nantes Posts: 463 |
- driving conditions (load, high / low gears ...) - environment (temp changes, humidity ...) are very plausible reasons for wear, too In this case, it's just the drivers |
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26th Jan 2022 7:42pm |
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natyeo Member Since: 27 Jan 2013 Location: Bentham Posts: 136 |
Post on page 25
"My 2014 2.2 90 HT at 127689 has just lost all drive , after fitting the Ashcroft kit in my 2012 90 , do I go the same route A) Ashcroft or B) do I go std land rover and drill and tap fit grease nipples 180 degrees apart and my acccss hole in casing or C) std landrover and fill with good grease? Thoughts Folks" Recovered back to my local Land Rover Garage as I was working away the next week, after a very quick look at it , slight rust dust at housing hole, and grinding sound when en-gauging a gear, got a call saying "whats up with your motor!" Now driving ok! , I said change transfer box and gear box oils see if there are any bits, all ok , hummmm , collected it , now done 128792 miles (1,103 miles) still ok , bit of low range off roading and trailer work, how bloody odd. I did order a new ashcorft shaft kit , clutch kit ready ha ha , oh well it will come in, will have to see how many more miles I can get out of the orginal shaft. 2014 2.2 90 hard top , Warm M8000 , Scorpain winch bumper, Ashcroft rear atb 2012 2.2 tdci 110 Utility 1993 110 CSW Warn M8000 , Scorpain winch bumper , 2" lift , Roamerdive overdrive, on going 1971 Hybird 200tdi, 2 x truetracs,Extrem winch bumper, M8000, GKN overdrive & Coils 2" lift, Glynn Lewis cranked rear trail arms 1971 Series 3 88, Perkins 4203,M8000,SATs,O/D, |
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26th Jan 2022 10:24pm |
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LR90XS2011 Member Since: 05 Apr 2011 Location: bickenhill Posts: 3639 |
transfer box not quite in gear? DEFENDER 90 TDCI XS,
I hope everyone is well and your land rovers make you happy |
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7th Feb 2022 10:01pm |
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