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Caterham

Member Since: 06 Nov 2008
Location: Birmingham
Posts: 6298

2011 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 XS CSW Stornoway Grey

sorry if I'm being dumb and missing something here (I often do).

The previous theories I was referring to was the idea of mis-alignment being the cause.

Siwynne then stated they had a replacement shaft installed using genuine parts including grease without failure over an extended period.

I then stated that sort of blow the mis-alignment theory out of the water.

If I'm not mistaken you've (Supacat) then suggested the problem is an obvious one ie if the OS was installed dry it would fail and if it's wet it won't (be that grease or oil) - at least that's how I've interpetted your comment?

I've then followed up by saying my second failure was after a wet install (that being a genuine LR replacement including grease) and I'm confident in saying that is the case for many which I would therefore suggest simply being a wet install does not remove the likelihood of failure?

23rd Jan 2022 5:52pm

MK

Member Since: 28 Aug 2008
Location: Santiago
Posts: 2414

2007 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 SW Chawton White

According to a product database I have seen from a parts retailer, shafts and adapters are made by different factories/countries + different batches.

IIRC 110´s tend to fail more often than 90´s (?) Puma 110" SW

.............................................................
Earth first. Other planets later

23rd Jan 2022 6:05pm

Supacat

Member Since: 16 Oct 2012
Location: West Yorkshire
Posts: 11018

2013 Defender 110 Puma 2.2 XS DCPU Keswick Green

Caterham ~ your 2nd failure was after a genuine replacement kit, yes that was a wet solution with the grease, but the point I have issue with the genuine replacement is highlighted in redb

ashtrans wrote:
Supacat wrote:
Is it correct that there's no know failure of the Ashcroft kit?

If that's the case, and their kit does nothing to address any type of alignment issue but rather changes the mating splines from dry to wet, then is it possible to hypothesise that this is the issue?

The fact that the LR instructions make reference to and include grease in the repair kit might also support this notion. Albeit, it does not have a way to hold the grease insitu or relish[replenish] (as per the Ashcroft kit) and thus there have been repeat failures?

I would agree with this, we don’t fix the misalignment, we just wet the spline so it doesn’t wear out as the spline faces rub with each revolution.

I'll throw it out again:

Is it correct that there's no known failure of the Ashcroft kit?

Until there's a confirmed one, then the kit appears to solve the issue, and the issue it was designed/engineered to solve was a lubrication issue.

Wet perhaps is the answer, but continually wet, not just an initial application of grease without any method of retaining it. Although, that has to be better than being dry. The Ashcroft kit talks of O rings to ensure the oil can be held/maintained in a wet condition.

If misalignment is the primary issue, it's hard to see how the Ashcroft kit has been successful, given that the Ashcroft kit does nothing for alignment.

I have to say that alignment may well play a secondary role in some of the failures, if the alternative is to believe JLR engineering integrity would rule this out!

23rd Jan 2022 6:17pm

Caterham

Member Since: 06 Nov 2008
Location: Birmingham
Posts: 6298

Supacat - please don't take offence here. this engineering stuff is above my pay grade as they say.

I concur with you comments, however perahaps if we turn your theory on its head......

why do we have some shafts of original install lasting 200k. my understanding is that the grease retention method has not changed. I don't disagree that the method for retention is not great so if we assume the grease is lost over time which I'm sure it is why would some shafts do 200k?

Can I assume therefore you're suggesting mis-alignment and dry = failure
and
mis-aligment and wet = non failure ?

23rd Jan 2022 6:54pm

Caterham

Member Since: 06 Nov 2008
Location: Birmingham
Posts: 6298

one last thing to add to the comment above re; 'no known issues'

If I were a betting man I'd say Keith was our first known failure with the kit but that's merely me putting 2+2 together and perhaps getting 7 or 8

.....I thoughts the Russians were bad

even if Keith was the first it appears the failure rates with the Ashcroft kit are very low which is a good thing. in my book nothing is 100% so even if there's the odd failure then thats to be expected in my books.

with the LR / Ford connection in the puma defenders I don't suppose we can simply replace the shaft with a CV joint out of a 3.2 ltr ranger can we?

23rd Jan 2022 7:00pm

Caterham

Member Since: 06 Nov 2008
Location: Birmingham
Posts: 6298

perhaps we should ask these guys to knock up a double prop replacement shaft?

https://baileymorris.co.uk/complete-compen...cond-joint

23rd Jan 2022 7:03pm

Siwynne

Member Since: 04 Nov 2016
Location: West lancs
Posts: 578

Caterham wrote:
thanks for throwing that in and ruining our theories

interesting

I wasn’t trying to ruin theories but it appears to me that some parts fail for one reason some for another and some for a combination of many. Dry, misaligned and abuse by dire driving styles, heavy loads etc etc etc.
if mine ever goes I’ll be fitting the Ashcroft one

23rd Jan 2022 7:07pm

Supacat

Member Since: 16 Oct 2012
Location: West Yorkshire
Posts: 11018

Caterham wrote:
Supacat - please don't take offence here. this engineering stuff is above my pay grade as they say.

No offence taken, aren't discussions like this actually what the Internet and forums like this are best at/for?

Caterham wrote:
why do we have some shafts of original install lasting 200k. my understanding is that the grease retention method has not changed.

I would hazard that in any population of failures, there will be outliers both on the low and high mileage side. That would just seem a normal distribution.

Additionally, I did see some speculation as to whether these joints were greased prior to assembly, maybe some were and some weren't. A QC issue somewhere along the line?

Caterham wrote:
Can I assume therefore you're suggesting mis-alignment and dry = failure
and
mis-aligment and wet = non failure ?

My point would be that you cannot differentiate any non-failure from just a failure that hasn't reached it's particular mileage point on a normal distribution curve, i.e., it's a future outlier.

With regard to me suggesting "mis-aligment and wet = non failure" then I'm not suggesting it's true, but rather posing the question and asking for evidence on the Ashcroft wet solution.

All splined joints may fail over time/use/mileage. It's just a question of whether that interval seems reasonable. The Ashcroft solution may not solve the underlying engineering issue (if there is one) but if it extends the service life of the parts to what most will feel to be "reasonable" and at an economical price point then, does it really matter?

24th Jan 2022 6:56am

Caterham

Member Since: 06 Nov 2008
Location: Birmingham
Posts: 6298

24th Jan 2022 12:58pm

Dinnu

Member Since: 24 Dec 2019
Location: Lija
Posts: 3414

2012 Defender 90 Puma 2.2 CSW Santorini Black

Did not Landrover solve the worn splines on the LT77 and early R380s by simply drilling the TC input get so as to make the splines wet? 1988 90 Hard Top, 19J Diesel Turbo, Shire Blue - Restoration ongoing
2012 90 CSW, 2.2TDCI, Santorini Black

24th Jan 2022 1:05pm

htb2

Member Since: 02 Nov 2018
Location: Carmarthenshire
Posts: 529

Did not Landrover solve the worn splines on the LT77 and early R380s by simply drilling the TC input get so as to make the splines wet?

Yes cross drilled gear IIRC

24th Jan 2022 5:25pm

Julie

Member Since: 07 Oct 2017
Location: Nantes
Posts: 482

2012 Defender 110 Puma 2.2 SW Keswick Green

ashtrans wrote:
Supacat wrote:
Is it correct that there's no know failure of the Ashcroft kit?

If that's the case, and their kit does nothing to address any type of alignment issue but rather changes the mating splines from dry to wet, then is it possible to hypothesise that this is the issue?

The fact that the LR instructions make reference to and include grease in the repair kit might also support this notion. Albeit, it does not have a way to hold the grease insitu or relish (as per the Ashcroft kit) and thus there have been repeat failures?

I would agree with this, we don’t fix the misalignment, we just wet the spline so it doesn’t wear out as the spline faces rub with each revolution.

And tolerances (i.e. misalignement) being part of each and every fabrication process.
There are no "zero tolerances"

26th Jan 2022 7:35pm

Julie

Member Since: 07 Oct 2017
Location: Nantes
Posts: 482

Dinnu wrote:
That is the hypothesis. Some Defenders can reach very good milage, some not, and the most plausible root cause is misalignment between the gearbox and the transfer case. These are mated with an adaptor housing, both ends are doweled, so most likely some had higher inaccuracies than others.

- driving conditions (load, high / low gears ...)
- environment (temp changes, humidity ...)

are very plausible reasons for wear, too
In this case, it's just the drivers

26th Jan 2022 7:42pm

natyeo

Member Since: 27 Jan 2013
Location: Bentham
Posts: 136

2014 Defender 90 Puma 2.2 HT Santorini Black

Post on page 25
"My 2014 2.2 90 HT at 127689 has just lost all drive , after fitting the Ashcroft kit in my 2012 90 , do I go the same route A) Ashcroft or B) do I go std land rover and drill and tap fit grease nipples 180 degrees apart and my acccss hole in casing or C) std landrover and fill with good grease?

Thoughts Folks"

Recovered back to my local Land Rover Garage as I was working away the next week, after a very quick look at it , slight rust dust at housing hole, and grinding sound when en-gauging a gear, got a call saying "whats up with your motor!"
Now driving ok! , I said change transfer box and gear box oils see if there are any bits, all ok , hummmm , collected it , now done 128792 miles (1,103 miles) still ok , bit of low range off roading and trailer work, how bloody odd.

I did order a new ashcorft shaft kit , clutch kit ready ha ha , oh well it will come in, will have to see how many more miles I can get out of the orginal shaft. 2014 2.2 90 hard top , Warm M8000 , Scorpain winch bumper, Ashcroft rear atb
2012 2.2 tdci 110 Utility
1993 110 CSW Warn M8000 , Scorpain winch bumper , 2" lift , Roamerdive overdrive, on going
1971 Hybird 200tdi, 2 x truetracs,Extrem winch bumper, M8000, GKN overdrive & Coils 2" lift, Glynn Lewis cranked rear trail arms
1971 Series 3 88, Perkins 4203,M8000,SATs,O/D,

26th Jan 2022 10:24pm

LR90XS2011

Member Since: 05 Apr 2011
Location: bickenhill
Posts: 3641

2011 Defender 90 Puma 2.4 XS CSW Galway Green

transfer box not quite in gear? DEFENDER 90 TDCI XS,

I hope everyone is well and your land rovers make you happy

7th Feb 2022 10:01pm

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