 | Home > Puma (Tdci) > Output shaft failure, Forum Survey |
 
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| Angus_Beef Member Since: 30 Apr 2015 Location: Oslo Posts: 434   
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exactly. find a super high milage puma and buy the adapter housing. Roaming around 🇳🇴🇨🇠|
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4th Jan 2022 12:44pm |
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| MK Member Since: 28 Aug 2008 Location: Santiago Posts: 2415  
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Correct me if I´m wrong but the survey did not account for model (90-110 etc) nor engine remap. Puma 110" SW
............................................................. Earth first. Other planets later |
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4th Jan 2022 12:58pm |
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| blackwolf Member Since: 03 Nov 2009 Location: South West England Posts: 17374  
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The idea presently in my mind is that it wouldn't be too difficult to make a fixture which picks up on the gearbox-end dowel holes of the housing and which could be clamped to the table on my Bridgeport mill. This would allow the relative positions of the dowel holes at the transfer-box-end of the housing to be compared with a high degree of accuracy, in two dimensions at least (three dimensions would require that the fixture was precision-ground for thickness, and that tends to be expensive, although there might be some work-arounds). Two however should be sufficient to determine axial alignment variations. The main problems are time, and getting hold of known good and known bad housings, and sadly this means it is unlikely to happen.
Correct, it did not, however both of these (essentially the GVW and engine power) are likely to be contributory factors rather than root causes, the heavier a vehicle is, and the more aggressively it is driven, will determine the rate of wear rather than the innate propensity to fret. |
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4th Jan 2022 1:03pm |
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| Caterham Member Since: 06 Nov 2008 Location: Birmingham Posts: 6298  
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here's a thought.
i you had the lt230 and fitted a flat plat to it with a spike sticking out where the shaft comes out and did the same for the gearbox. fit both of the above to the adapter shaft casing and hey presto the two spikes should join in the middle and form a straight line? if they don't you've found the problem - perhaps? which then leads me to think - if they didn't, presumably fitting the shaft in the first place would be problematic trying to line it up?  |
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4th Jan 2022 2:03pm |
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| blackwolf Member Since: 03 Nov 2009 Location: South West England Posts: 17374
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Two problems - firstly, how would you know you had the spikes in the right place (and straight, since we are probably looking for only a few thou misalignment), and secondly how would you see them inside the casing?
Apart from that it's an excellent idea!  |
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4th Jan 2022 4:29pm |
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| Caterham Member Since: 06 Nov 2008 Location: Birmingham Posts: 6298
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I was thinking some bluetak and 2no HB pencils (or 2H, I don't think it really matters), clearly they'd need to be sharpened.
....did you say a few thou. ok they'd need to be really sharp and you'd need to use BIG dollops of bluetak to make sure they don't move. on second thoughts, it might be best to leave it with someone who knows what they're doing..... did you say a few thou - I thought the method of joint allowed for some tollerence (more than that) - but like I say probably best I step back and join the spectators 
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4th Jan 2022 4:44pm |
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| Dinnu Member Since: 24 Dec 2019 Location: Lija Posts: 3414  
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If we think about it, from a technical point, the adaptor shaft it is not much different than the halfshaft/drive member splines.... just a financial difference, and the fact that there is only one intermediate shaft, so difflock will not take you home. 1988 90 Hard Top, 19J Diesel Turbo, Shire Blue - Restoration ongoing
2012 90 CSW, 2.2TDCI, Santorini Black |
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4th Jan 2022 4:52pm |
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| Jonothethird Member Since: 17 Jan 2021 Location: North Uorkshire Posts: 27 
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Hi. I’m a newbie on here so hope I am not breaching any protocols!
I have a 2007 90 Puma with 48k miles, which drives well but does have some driveline slop (clunki) once hot, not so much when cold. A pal’s 2010 110 Puma with 50k miles recently suffered the dreaded output shaft failure and I am now expecting to grind to a halt at any moment. Ignorance was bliss! I’ve read most of this very useful thread and it seems to me that the earliest Pumas (07 to 0  have experienced far fewer shaft failures than the later Pumas. 2010-12 Pumas seem to be particularly bad, with multiple failures in some cases. In fact I don’t think I’ve read on here of a single 2007 Puma shaft actually failing and many are on 100k (some c200k plus) plus miles.
This might be just coincidental that early Puma failures are not being reported on here (or wishful thinking on my part  ). Anyone know if it is a fact? I guess it could be to do with manufacturing tolerances/ shaft alignment deteriorating over time.
I am wondering whether to bite the bullet and change mine, or hope for the best  !!
Thanks |
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4th Jan 2022 9:05pm |
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| DSC-off Member Since: 16 Oct 2014 Location: North East Posts: 1403 
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Hi, and welcome to the forum.
If you go to page 9 of this topic there are some charts with failure milage, build year and also 'still running'. Years 2007 and 2008 do appear to last longer, there are numerous reasons why that may be. 1) those vehicles were already 10 years old when we started the survey. They may not be with the original owner, the history could have been lost and not reported. 2) the components that are causing the problem may have changed supplier after 2008. The new supply may not be as good as previous. 3) the tooling for the components could have progressively worn over time. At the start of Puma production it should have been in good condition, producing parts with less dimensional variation, ie mostly good parts. As time passed the tooling would wear, parts become less accurate, more bad ones are made. (thinking here: gearbox, adapter casting and transfer box) ^ This certainly seems to be the case as occurrences increase steadily and happen sooner, until we arrive at the situation where 2.2 models can fail at 10K miles. There is no certainty that any vehicle is a 'good one', at least not until it's past 90K miles. At that point I'd accept it had done it's job. Personally, I'd be unhappy doing an overseas trip without knowing the shaft is in good condition. I'm also unhappy driving in the UK like that, and still look to this survey to try and judge when I will fit the Ashcroft kit. The timing is a game of Russian Roulette.  |
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5th Jan 2022 11:05am |
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| blackwolf Member Since: 03 Nov 2009 Location: South West England Posts: 17374
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I bought my MY2007 pre-owned in 2010, and was told by a very reliable contact at a main dealer that by 2010 the output adaptor shaft problem was well-known with many failures. The dealer had by then already investigated a modification to fit grease nipples (which I imagine they were stopped from doing by LR). There is no reason to think that an '07 would be any less likely than a later vehicle to suffer from the problem.
Really the only thing that I think you can safely assume is that if you have a transmission which wears coupling out quickly it will continue to do so, and if you have one which doesn't wear them out it is unlikely to start doing so. Additionally although this forum is dominated by tales of coupling failure and there are undoubtedly far too many failures, I suspect that it is still a minority of vehicles which have an appetite for failures. When I was talking to my contact in 2010, he told me that the following faults were already causing major concerns within the dealer network for the TDCi Defender: 1) Clutch failures - the early clutches were chronically bad, by 2010 my Defender was on its third clutch, which is a shocking one clutch per year. Later clutches are better and there are more alternatives, the last (genuine standard) clutch I fitted to mine has now done around 130k miles but does need replacing, I have a 4x4 Transit clutch ready to replace it when I get time. 2) Fuel system - the VCV was already become legendary for failures and poor running, along with a total absence of any fault codes. The dealer would as a matter of routine replace the VCV on any vehicle suspected of having moisture or the diesel bug in the fuel system since VCV failure is an almost inevitable consequence. 3) Oil leaks from the rear of the transfer box - the early TDCi vehicles suffered badly fro this due to the angle at which the engine and transmission were fitted. 4) Sump - the original design of sump can be damaged and holed (leading to catastrophic engine failure) as a result of contact with the front propshaft if the vehicle is used off-road. LR would replace this free if asked by the owner within the first three years, but you had to know that there was a problem in order to ask. I asked, but ended up paying for the new sump as the 3 years had just elapsed. 5) Piston Cooling Jet hysteresis - a problem with the original piston cooling jets (PCJs) meant that if they were subjected to excessive oil pressure they would shut down until the pressure dropped to zero. The result of this brilliant design feature was that if you had think dirty oil in the sump and started the engine on a cold day, there would be no lubrication to the lower cylinder bores and extremely rapid engine wear would occur, usually leading to complete destruction of the engine. Again for about the first three years Landrover would subsidise the fitment of a new engine if this happened, but after three years they took the view that if a vehicle was going to suffer from this problem then it would have done by then, and no further financial assistance was given for repairs even if it was clear it was for exactly the same flawed design. I can't offhand remember any further warning of doom I was given at the time, but I did think that this was enough to be getting on with. In conclusion for a 48k 2007 Puma, if the clutch is original I would expect it to be at death's door, I don't think you can really conclude anything about the shaft, but you get an ideal opportunity to inspect it when you replace the clutch (if the shaft is in good condition at 48k you probably have a good one), and if you intend to use the vehicle off-road I would recommend changing the sump (which isn't expensive). If you do hole the sump with the propshaft, it is likely that the engine will be destroyed before you find out about the hole, and that is very expensive. Re. the PCJ problem, as long as you keep the oil clean you are unlikely now to have any problems. |
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5th Jan 2022 11:50am |
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| Caterham Member Since: 06 Nov 2008 Location: Birmingham Posts: 6298
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AND YOU STILL BOUGHT IT
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5th Jan 2022 2:27pm |
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| Race.it Member Since: 27 Aug 2019 Location: Algeciras Posts: 817  
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The ends of the axel falling off so they made them brackets to catch it when the weld gave way. Searching for my first Defender...and started just as Covid hit, so talk about timing. 5 months after starting the search I found it, and here is the details |
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5th Jan 2022 4:32pm |
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| blackwolf Member Since: 03 Nov 2009 Location: South West England Posts: 17374
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I'd already bought it by then! I wasn't sure then that I would be keeping it as long as I have ended up doing, though. |
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5th Jan 2022 5:35pm |
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| blackwolf Member Since: 03 Nov 2009 Location: South West England Posts: 17374
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That "feature" was introduced later and wasn't a problem on 2007 vehicles, and also hadn't been found out about in 2010. That's one that Jonothethird shouldn't have to worry about, unless his vehicle has had the axle changed of course. |
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5th Jan 2022 5:37pm |
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