 | Home > Puma (Tdci) > Another output shaft..... |
 
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| windy81 Member Since: 14 Mar 2018 Location: North Wales Posts: 311   
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Dirko make a substance that is made to join splined shafts together, permanently.
Is this not an option ? is axial play in the shaft required for thermal expansion or something ? |
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11th Jun 2018 4:07pm |
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| Julie Member Since: 07 Oct 2017 Location: Nantes Posts: 484  
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Replacing a shaft every 50 000 - is it the only solution? I have had other cars that went 200 000 on their first shafts. That's so frustrating with JLR. Is there anybody out there who's got some sort of reimbursement from JLR ? Does JLR take at least some responsibility for these early shaft failures ? Do JLR come up with some sort of solution ? This so extremely frustrating because these greenhorns from JLR had almost the same problem with the LT77. |
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11th Jun 2018 8:38pm |
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| nosnibod Member Since: 15 Aug 2007 Location: West Midlands Posts: 370  
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I've a chance to do 80-odd miles on all sorts of roads with the fresh output shaft installed. Gracie now drives better than ever - she had the one-piece half shafts fitted at 24,000 miles and now that the output shaft has been sorted the vast majority of the transmission backlash has gone.
The main difference is the lack of jerkiness as the transmission catches up with what the wheels are doing and vice versa. The 1st-2nd change needed some very careful use of the clutch but now it's smooth all the time even if I try and provoke it. In short, I'm delighted with the result. As to the question of whether a genuine LR shaft or Ashcroft's modified version is the best solution. I had the choice of either and cost wasn't an issue for me. I decided on the genuine LR shaft because there have been problems with the Ashcroft shaft and I wanted a fit-and-forget solution on the basis that I'm now treating it as a service item just the same as the clutch. The fact that the original shaft - ungreased - lasted 52,000 miles gives me some comfort that a properly installed and greased shaft will last a pretty long time in my particular setup[1] and definitely until the next clutch change where it will be examined and if necessary replaced again. I also now know what a worn shaft feels like to drive - i.e. pretty horrible - so I think I'll have a pretty good idea what the state of the shaft will be anyway. [1] I tend to agree with Blackwolf that there must be some vehicles with imperfectly aligned shafts or other factors that mean they will chew through shafts quickly whilst others last for over 200,000 miles. Dave Green Goddess - 1998 Defender 110 300tdi |
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12th Jun 2018 8:17pm |
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| Julie Member Since: 07 Oct 2017 Location: Nantes Posts: 484
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I suppose the splines have always been greased before fitting. Even at the factory.
But time flies - and grease disappears like it does on a bike chain or in an axle bearing. Good vehicle design would have foreseen a grease nipple for this spline like it exists for any spline comparable. But this is not the case  |
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12th Jun 2018 8:39pm |
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| nosnibod Member Since: 15 Aug 2007 Location: West Midlands Posts: 370
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No sign of grease in mine at all - I thought there was some congealed stuff but it was just dry lumps of rusty dust that broke up as soon as they were touched. The inside of the adaptor case was spotless too so if LR did grease it I have no idea where it went. There were some reports of people noticing blue grease coming out of the drain hole so it appears that LR did at least grease some from new.
But yeah it's a poor design made much worse by poor assembly. Dave Green Goddess - 1998 Defender 110 300tdi |
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12th Jun 2018 9:06pm |
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| Julie Member Since: 07 Oct 2017 Location: Nantes Posts: 484
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No signs of grease in mine, too.
But grease may disappear within 5...6 yrs. Other splines have a grease nipple for renewal. Don't know why JLR forgot the nipple in this spline... such a greenhorn mistake  |
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12th Jun 2018 9:13pm |
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| blackwolf Member Since: 03 Nov 2009 Location: South West England Posts: 17382 
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Glad you're having a positive experience now! Can I ask what (and how many) problems you've heard about with the Ashcroft modified shaft? Thanks. |
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12th Jun 2018 9:18pm |
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| nosnibod Member Since: 15 Aug 2007 Location: West Midlands Posts: 370
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Regarding the Ashcroft shaft, leaking and vibration were the two issues I've been told about by IRB, as well as some fitting difficulties with mismatched components in the kit which someone reported here on Defender2. Ashcroft's have excellent customer service and replaced the faulty components but with the the best will in the world, I didn't want to need to use their customer service correcting issues hence my choice of a standard setup.
There is also the lack of evidence - so far - that the Ashcroft solution is indeed a long-term solution although it certainly seems to have potential. I'd still be insisting that it was stripped open and examined when the gearboxes were out for a future clutch change anyway. I was 'lucky' in my case that the wear was detectable when driving but some people have reported no hint of a problem until it goes pop - hopefully that could be avoided by examining the splines whenever possible. Dave Green Goddess - 1998 Defender 110 300tdi |
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12th Jun 2018 9:49pm |
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| zsd-puma Member Since: 09 Aug 2016 Location: Kent Posts: 2720 
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Can probably say the same about the greased standard shafts really. Neither solution has been around that long. I think the Ashcroft method is similar in principle (oil lubricated splines) to the method Land Rover used to solve a similar issue on earlier vehicles. I forget the exact dates, but I think Land Rovers had similar issues up until the early 90's, they solved it then didn't learn from their mistakes when developing the Puma. |
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12th Jun 2018 10:40pm |
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| blackwolf Member Since: 03 Nov 2009 Location: South West England Posts: 17382
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My greased standard shaft has now been in service for 75k miles since greasing, but it had been in service for 150k miles prior to greasing, so that doesn't really prove anything! Furthermore until I next inspect it (which will be as soon as I can find time to change the clutch, unless of course it fails sooner) I have no idea what state it is in now.
So all this proves is that a 2007 shaft, which we know to be less failure-prone than later shafts, has done half the mileage after greasing that it managed prior to greasing. Useful info? I think not! I think the biggest problem we have in analysing shaft performance is that we still have no idea why the shafts are actually failing. Assuming a lack of lubrication to be the primary problem seems naive since we know that some ungreased shafts have done significant mileages (there was no evidence of anything resembling grease on mine at 150k miles). If lack of lubrication is not the reason they fail, providing lubrication is unlikely to prevent all failures. I have made my views and suspicions clear on here several times that I think that it is a misalignment/tolerance and/or materials specification/QC issue, exacerbated by a lack of lubrication that causes these failures, in which case providing lubrication is likely to increase greatly the MTBF but not eliminate the problem. I wonder what would happen if the joint was cross-drilled and pinned so that there was no possibility of any movement in the splines. |
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13th Jun 2018 9:46am |
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| Bluest Member Since: 23 Apr 2016 Location: Lancashire Posts: 4209 
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Dry splined shaft couplings are used in all manner of applications without problem which leads me to think the lack of lubrication might not be the root cause. Greasing/oiling the splines may just be a sticking plaster. I'd guess either the alignment is off or more likely there is axial movement. I have never seen the Puma shafts, so maybe someone else can comment whether either is possible.
Drive shafts on modern cars usually use dry splines on the wheel end and rarely suffer problems at even very high miles in my experience, but the shaft is normally secured by a high torque nut preventing any axial movement in the splines. The other splines that have issues on a Defender are the half shafts, and they too are a floating design which allows axial movement leading to fretting. 2007 110 TDCi Station Wagon XS |
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13th Jun 2018 12:14pm |
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| blackwolf Member Since: 03 Nov 2009 Location: South West England Posts: 17382
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The output adaptor shaft on the Puma is a floating shaft, it has a loose-fitting spring ring arrangement to locate it which allows a small amount of axial movement on the splines. I suspect that this movement is the major, but possibly not the only, factor in the failure of this coupling.
There are many aspects of the installation of the Ford engine and gearbox into the Puma - in fact just about every aspect of the installation - which make me feel the task was given to the work experience student whilst the grown-ups played with more exciting and cool things like positioning the Disco 5's rear number plate! |
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13th Jun 2018 1:28pm |
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| JOW240725 Member Since: 04 May 2015 Location: Suffolk Posts: 7905 
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Well Grey's output shaft was replaced today. This will be the third one on 56k. Another original shaft fitted but well greased this time. We'll see how this one lasts!
I now realise how much 'slack' / clonking was the output shaft. All feels much smoother and tighter now!  James
MY2012 110 2.2TDCi XS SW Orkney Grey - http://www.defender2.net/forum/topic43410.html MY1990 110 200TDi SW beautifully faded Portofino Red - https://www.defender2.net/forum/post743641.html#743641 MY1984 90 V8 Slate Grey - https://www.defender2.net/forum/post744557.html#744557 Instagram @suffolk_rovers |
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13th Jun 2018 5:17pm |
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| zsd-puma Member Since: 09 Aug 2016 Location: Kent Posts: 2720
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It probably wasn't quite as drastic as that, but you're probably not that far from the mark either. I expect they just gave a small team of people the task of fitting it and didn't give them a lot of time to do it. Something along the lines of; "Right lads, see that transit engine and gearbox in the stillage over there, you've got a fortnight to put it in that Defender and there's next to no budget for production tooling" |
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13th Jun 2018 8:13pm |
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