 | Home > Puma (Tdci) > Another output shaft failure... |
 
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| Caterham Member Since: 06 Nov 2008 Location: Birmingham Posts: 6298   
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Thinking it might be a fooked transfer box but will have to see once it's dropped.
F'in thing. |
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16th Mar 2017 9:10pm |
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| ChrisWoods Member Since: 29 Dec 2016 Location: Spreyton Posts: 164  
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My advice is definatly replace with an Ashcroft kit. It's only £285. I'm sure the landrover parts come to well over £100 so it's about £150 more. That's assuming you only have to replace it once.
Your drive flanges are easy to grease and replace but they wear in a similar fashion. This shaft is not easy to grease. Even if the landrover parts are installed completely slathered in heavy grease it will still dry out eventually. There should only be enough room from new for a micron thin layer of grease between the splines. The ashcroft kit is fit and forget, a great mod. Shame landrover didn't use the same initiative when designing it originally. 2009 2.4TDCi XS Utility Wagon. |
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16th Mar 2017 9:55pm |
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| Caterham Member Since: 06 Nov 2008 Location: Birmingham Posts: 6298
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Maybe. Like I say upon reflection though I think it'll turn out to be the transfer box but will hopefully know the weekend.
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16th Mar 2017 9:58pm |
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) click and clacks of driveline backlash.
| ChrisWoods Member Since: 29 Dec 2016 Location: Spreyton Posts: 164
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I was getting a clunk from power to overrun and forward to reverse. Gave me plenty of warning and didnt actually fail. I drive fairly steady though.
LT230 Is fairly bulletproof but could be centre diff wear. 2009 2.4TDCi XS Utility Wagon. |
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16th Mar 2017 10:22pm |
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| Caterham Member Since: 06 Nov 2008 Location: Birmingham Posts: 6298
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I had circa 200 miles of increasing backlash before failure plus the odd significant clonks initially while turning which is another reason why I'm now thinking lt230.
Also I've experienced what I believe was transmission wind up. Anyway this time Sunday I'll know more. |
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16th Mar 2017 10:46pm |
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| Pickles Member Since: 26 May 2013 Location: Melbourne Posts: 3782  
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I heard an unusual quite loud/rough "click" from the transmission area, but kept driving, and then lost all drive about 20ks later.
Renewal of the shaft made no difference whatsoever to any driveline backlash that I had, and still have. Pickles. |
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16th Mar 2017 10:50pm |
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| agentmulder Member Since: 16 Apr 2016 Location: Outer Space Posts: 1324 
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I got the power to overrun clack from the flanges before i swapped them and shafts/CVs, but this one is more central and it takes more torque to get the noise, it's not immediate, nor is it always repeatable. Anyhoo, could be a lot of other things. I'll wait and hopefully it'll present itself in a helpful part of town (the driveway).  Solved the bowel problem, working on the consonants... |
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17th Mar 2017 5:40am |
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| nosnibod Member Since: 15 Aug 2007 Location: West Midlands Posts: 368 
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Well, I had an interesting experience yesterday and I'm still not sure what to make of it all.
Back in June I had my main dealer replace Gracie's rear crank seal that was weeping. Of course that means removing the gearboxes. Before that was done I asked for the output shaft to be examined and replaced if necessary due to the excessive backlash. On picking Gracie up, I was assured that the output shaft has been replaced and on the drive home, Gracie was transformed - no backlash at all and no clonking from the transmission in normal use. 12,000 miles later and I took Gracie in for her 36k service. I also asked them to check the backlash to see if things were still okay with things like drive flanges - might as well check whilst the wheels are off and the main dealer is charging a fortune for what is basically an oil change.... I can't detect any excessive backlash and Gracie continues to drive beautifully. Anyway the 'technician' reported play in the output shaft and the rear drive flanges! Remember this nugget for later! So, after 12,000 miles it appears the output shaft is worn yet again. I'm not pleased at this at all - an output shaft only lasting 12,000 miles??? However, all is not as it seems.... On expressing my dismay and disappointment I asked the service manager check what was really done when the output shaft was 'replaced' 12,000 miles ago. So I got to see the parts list of what they used when the 'replaced' the output shaft. It turns out that they NEVER replaced the output shaft at all, despite telling me a story at the time about how badly it was worn and they'd fitted a new one a greased it properly. To say I'm not best pleased at being misled is an understatement. I will NOT be using them again after this. However, there is an upside to this... What they DID do 12,000 miles ago was replace the rear halfshafts with the one-piece ones - which is a surprise because they didn't tell me that at the time. And no I didn't take their word for it this time - the part numbers on the warranty list showed the new one-piece shafts and flanges (at over £300 each...!). I popped a rear wheel off at home to check and at least the dealer told the truth about that! Those one-piece flanges/shaft will never wear out or have any play in them - excellent! And what about the nugget that told me the rear drive flanges were worn - despite that fact they'd been replaced? "oh sorry sir he's only been with us a year and doesn't understand Defenders". At £500 for an oil change I don't want the apprentice working on my vehicle! So what's the result? 1. I've driven nearly a third of a million miles in Defenders and I know backlash when I feel it. Gracie has no backlash in normal driving and I can only get a clonk if I'm deliberately provoke it. That - to me - means that the output shaft has lasted 36,000 miles of mixed driving including quite a bit of towing and - from the driving seat - appears to be in good condition. I know Blackwolf examined an output shaft at quite a high mileage and it was more-or-less perfect so it is possible for these things to last. 2. Replacement of worn drive flanges - preferably the new one-piece ones - makes a *huge* difference to the amount of backlash in the system. if you have backlash in the system - change the rear drive flanges first. 3. I am never using a main dealer again - especially now that the Defender has finished production. They simply don't know the vehicles any more. Dave Green Goddess - 1998 Defender 110 300tdi |
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17th Mar 2017 6:25am |
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| Caterham Member Since: 06 Nov 2008 Location: Birmingham Posts: 6298
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As I have said before elsewhere i'm not convinced as others have said there's an issue with the adapter shaft but clearly in some cases as there's something else that causes premature failure and I wonder if it could possibly the friction plate. I it possible if the friction plate doesn't damn properly it'll cause premature failure?
I guess on the subject of on piece half shafts HD flanges might be almost as good? Do the HD flanges fit on the boost wheels unseen? |
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17th Mar 2017 6:59am |
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| AlanH Member Since: 15 Mar 2010 Location: WA Posts: 242
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I had the shaft done on my 2010 110 just in case. OME shaft plus a rubbers bellows around it full of grease. I had a new transfer box under warranty done by our local stealer and asked the workshop foreman specifically to make sure the shaft was greased as they did the job.
In a deep curry nosh shop accent he replied...."It is not a service item"! When the independent workshop replaced the shaft 60K later, the original shaft was as dry as a dead dingos donger...... 
Sorry. Bit of Oz humour. Just one reason I've given up on Defenders, this was our third (Td5 and 300Tdi previously) and the worst by far for driveline slop and cheap nasty finishes all round. No doubt it was caused by mostly Ford accounting to save a cent here and there everywhere....... AlanH. |
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17th Mar 2017 8:42am |
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| proloForêt Member Since: 16 Mar 2017 Location: Montereau Posts: 248  
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Hello, this is an interesting but sometimes confusing commetry for me but I read all in one go. I have an ASHCROFT to put into the car. I take this with the car as extra when I buy it and the seller say to me to come here to realise the importance of this ASHCROFT. I understand the Ashcroft is more high in quality than the original piece but i understand now that I must replace the "one piece halfshafts" also and must pay 800€ or more for these pieces?
I am a little angry now that the seller did not tell me I also need these pieces for the Ashcroft to work and make sure I am not lashing back after. I am good with tools and work to restoring a 1968 Alpine A110 (it is small French sports car) for 2 years so I am now more experience with mechanics. Do you think I can do with this experience the job of Ashcroft and one piece halfshaft? In France the cost of workers in the dealers is very high so I hope to avoid. I do not understand how in England you can pay £500 for changing of the oil. I cannot afford these prices because I am just a worker in foret. I hope to do this work. Léo |
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17th Mar 2017 9:21am |
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| blackwolf Member Since: 03 Nov 2009 Location: South West England Posts: 17338 
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The Ashcroft modified gearbox output adaptor shaft and the one-piece halfshafts are totally different things and are not dependent on each other.
The Ashcroft output adaptor shaft has been produced to address a very common failure with the Ford-engined Defenders, whcih is that the splines on the shaft connecting the the main gearbox to the transfer box wear through fretting and fail, leaving you with no drive. The Ashcroft modified parts allow oil to seep in a controlled manner from the gearbox into the splined coupling to lubricate the splines (which are not lubricated at all on most vehicles on assembly, or has a small amount of grease on some). There is some mystery as to why this joint fails on standard Defenders, since there are some, such as my own 2007 110, whcih have done very high mileages with negligible wear (mine was like new at 150,000 miles) and other whcih fail completely at fewer than 10,000 miles. It seems inconceivable that there is not either a material specification issue, or an alignment issue, or both, at play. Generally 2007 parts seem to last longer than later ones, 2010 seem to be the worst. The halfshafts address a different but similar issue. the splines between the rear halfshafts and the rear drive flanges also are unlubricated as standard and wear through fretting. This can to a a great extent be mitigated through regular greasing, but ultimately they will fail resulting in a a loss of drive. The last Defenders from the factory used one-piece halfshafts with the flange and the halfshaft as a single piece. These completely solve the problem, but are expensive. In the event of the failure of either the gearbox output adaptor shaft or a rear halfshaft flange, the immediate result will be a complete loss of drive. If you lock the centre diff, you will restore drive if the problem is a halfshaft, but not if it is the adaptor shaft (there is no way to restore drive for this at the roadside). |
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17th Mar 2017 10:07am |
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| proloForêt Member Since: 16 Mar 2017 Location: Montereau Posts: 248
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Mr Blackwolf thank you for this explain. It will save me research time I had begun. I now realise the truth.
I was confused with the commentry of nosnibod. Thank you to take the time. Léo |
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17th Mar 2017 10:22am |
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| blackwolf Member Since: 03 Nov 2009 Location: South West England Posts: 17338
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Je vous en prie, you are welcome!
After a while we tend to know what we're talking about on this forum, and that can make it difficult for vewcomers, especially those for whom English is not their first language. Every now and again it is useful to be asked for a sinple explanation! |
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17th Mar 2017 10:46am |
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