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discocuzzy

Member Since: 16 Jul 2008
Location: surrey
Posts: 1200

So stop banging on about it then, your next works van will be something produced from the rising sun if you work for a utility company that's for sure.
Demographics, costs and reliability issues will ensure that.
Like I said earlier, I like Defenders, but if I'm heading up the division that will decide if this goes into production or not, I want to appeal to a wider Market...I'm sure Tata will still make basic versions of the Defender for military use, however looking how they currently perform in the field against IEDs, I think that Market is seriously limited as well I'm afraid.

Time for a total rethink and I like what LR are doing, we have 4 years to see if this finally goes ahead, it will probably be the replacement for the Disco as well si it's going to be interesting to see the developments. You cannot teach stupid people to do clever things

24th Sep 2011 7:08pm

Setok

Member Since: 16 Jan 2009
Location: Helsinki
Posts: 422

discocuzzy wrote:

They need to break the US Market period, they can't do that with the current model.
It's time to move on, the current model will still have huge appeal to the enthusiasts, everyone else who needs a reliable workhorse has already voted with their feet and gone to the mass produced Toyota , Nissan etc.

It's economics that will dictate the new model, not anoraks who can't live with change.

I love the Supermerine Spitfire, the most beautiful aircraft every made, makes a great noise, was fab 60 years ago, but I wouldn't want to take it into war against the latest fighter technology of today as I'll get toasted.....that's exactly the same situation LR are in now.

Well I certainly wouldn't want to take the DC100 into war either (but I could take a Defender). Your analogy doesn't work at all. Nobody here has been against change and development. We were expecting it. But you don't replace a Spitfire with a Cessna, you replace it with something that can do the same job better.

There is very obviously a market for utility vehicles, as most major manufacturers have something in that market. To extend their reach there they simply have to improve their reputation on reliability (whether the reputation is even fair or not), and they have to have a vehicle for the US. The Americans love the Defender (look at the prices for 2nd hand cars), but they cannot get their hands on them.

You talk of how the leisure market is bigger. I'm sure it is. But it's already extremely well catered for: Freelander, Discovery, Evoque, RR Sport ... plus dozens of others. The Defender caters for the utility and enthusiast segment. I can't see much in the DC100 to convince me it will be the car to do it there. In fact I think people will simply move over to another brand.

24th Sep 2011 7:17pm

Setok

Member Since: 16 Jan 2009
Location: Helsinki
Posts: 422

I just saw an advertisement for a Jeep Compass. Nothing special about that, but guess what? To round of the ad they had it driving alongside a Wrangler, giving it heaps of credibility. Everyone knows the Defender has been a huge asset when it comes to the credibility of the Land Rover brand, but it always amazes me how Land Rover, and Land Rover dealers almost seem embarrassed about it. They never really show it anywhere.

Jeep has realised the value of their brand and how to keep it updated at the same time. I want to see more of that now from Land Rover.

Last edited by Setok on 24th Sep 2011 7:25pm. Edited 1 time in total

24th Sep 2011 7:21pm

22900013A

Member Since: 23 Dec 2010
Location: Oxfordshire
Posts: 3150

2011 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 USW Keswick Green

Setok wrote:
discocuzzy wrote:

They need to break the US Market period, they can't do that with the current model.
It's time to move on, the current model will still have huge appeal to the enthusiasts, everyone else who needs a reliable workhorse has already voted with their feet and gone to the mass produced Toyota , Nissan etc.

It's economics that will dictate the new model, not anoraks who can't live with change.

I love the Supermerine Spitfire, the most beautiful aircraft every made, makes a great noise, was fab 60 years ago, but I wouldn't want to take it into war against the latest fighter technology of today as I'll get toasted.....that's exactly the same situation LR are in now.

Well I certainly wouldn't want to take the DC100 into war either (but I could take a Defender). Your analogy doesn't work at all. Nobody here has been against change and development. We were expecting it. But you don't replace a Spitfire with a Cessna, you replace it with something that can do the same job better.

There is very obviously a market for utility vehicles, as most major manufacturers have something in that market. To extend their reach there they simply have to improve their reputation on reliability (whether the reputation is even fair or not), and they have to have a vehicle for the US. The Americans love the Defender (look at the prices for 2nd hand cars), but they cannot get their hands on them.

You talk of how the leisure market is bigger. I'm sure it is. But it's already extremely well catered for: Freelander, Discovery, Evoque, RR Sport ... plus dozens of others. The Defender caters for the utility and enthusiast segment. I can't see much in the DC100 to convince me it will be the car to do it there. In fact I think people will simply move over to another brand.

Spot on. They also already sell all the other models in the US don't they? The yanks like Defenders precisely because they can't get them (easily) once they can, they would have a reduced appeal I think. 2011 110 USW
1973 Series III 1-Ton
1972 Series III 1-Ton Cherrypicker
1969 IIA 1-Ton
1966 IIA 88"

24th Sep 2011 7:22pm

Romadog

Member Since: 07 Jul 2011
Location: Powys
Posts: 1750

Jeep are not selling well at the moment. They are trying to use the wrangler to promote the wholly bland 4wd estate cars that they keep redesigning, but giving the same model name and still few are sold. Hence their need to advertise

24th Sep 2011 7:33pm

discocuzzy

Member Since: 16 Jul 2008
Location: surrey
Posts: 1200

Well let's just hope LR get it right and cater for everyone

You cannot teach stupid people to do clever things

24th Sep 2011 7:42pm

pcoote

Member Since: 01 Aug 2010
Location: Oxford
Posts: 83

2010 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 USW Stornoway Grey

I was just wondering what the British Army was going to replace the Snatch Landrover with. Check out this bad boy, called Ocelot by Force protection.

Check it out http://www.forceprotection.net/products/ocelot/

24th Sep 2011 7:43pm

Setok

Member Since: 16 Jan 2009
Location: Helsinki
Posts: 422

22900013A wrote:

Spot on. They also already sell all the other models in the US don't they? The yanks like Defenders precisely because they can't get them (easily) once they can, they would have a reduced appeal I think.

Oh I agree, but I'm also certain there's a market for them there.

24th Sep 2011 8:23pm

Setok

Member Since: 16 Jan 2009
Location: Helsinki
Posts: 422

Romadog wrote:
Jeep are not selling well at the moment. They are trying to use the wrangler to promote the wholly bland 4wd estate cars that they keep redesigning, but giving the same model name and still few are sold. Hence their need to advertise

You're right. Most of the range is severely challenged in the interest department. Jeep is reckoned to be GM's most valuable brand, but I bet you it's the Wrangler which is mostly responsible for that.

24th Sep 2011 8:24pm

22900013A

Member Since: 23 Dec 2010
Location: Oxfordshire
Posts: 3150

Setok wrote:
22900013A wrote:

Spot on. They also already sell all the other models in the US don't they? The yanks like Defenders precisely because they can't get them (easily) once they can, they would have a reduced appeal I think.

Oh I agree, but I'm also certain there's a market for them there.

But they want current Defenders, so they will only ever get 25 year old ones. They will buy new ones, sure, as they do the current crop sold over there. But I don't know if it will be quite the same. 2011 110 USW
1973 Series III 1-Ton
1972 Series III 1-Ton Cherrypicker
1969 IIA 1-Ton
1966 IIA 88"

24th Sep 2011 8:33pm

Ads90

Member Since: 16 Jun 2008
Location: Cots-on-the-Wolds
Posts: 812

2007 Defender 90 Puma 2.4 CSW Keswick Green

It might make it easier to understand where the design considerations of the DC100 are coming from, if we understand what LR are expecting to be marketing it against in 4 years time?

If it won't be up against the current Defender, Santana, Wrangler, G-class et al, as presumably they will either not exist in the developed world (due to legislation and/or rising production costs), or have too small a market for LR to be interested in;

If it won't be up against any military-grade vehicle, as these are getting too specialist;

Then just what are the world-wide farmers/builders/light 4x4 utility/recreational types currently buying in volume if not the above? What is the new defender up against?

I'm assuming Navaras, Toyota Hilux, Ford Ranger, F-150, etc...

If so, then its clear where LR are coming from, and its a fair bet there will be 3 door, 5 door, pickup and truck-cab versions of the new Def, and suddenly it all makes sense... to me anyway, and I think they will do very well with this!

Whether us Defender die-hards would actually desire one or not is another thing... but I suspect that may have been mission impossible anyway.

24th Sep 2011 8:42pm

ken

Member Since: 18 Aug 2009
Location: Banging Birds with my bitches !!
Posts: 4328

Ads I fear you are on the right line we are a too small minority that could be seen as unsustainable I think / guess that LR are going to try and tap acdifferent segment TBH I'm not offended by the concept and see it as just that a concept.

I work within the automotive sector and get involved in concepts launches driving camod vehicles normally pre production ones so I know that we are way off even a pre production model LR I guess are just testing views and they are getting them.

I do fear that the Defender will die but at the end of the day it's evolution and just maybe it's time for LR to move on we if you believe the money men are about to go into another downturn ( I do hope they also predict the weather as they can't get that right

) so only time will till. Oh btw in the flesh the spare was way smaller in rolling diameter than the bling wheels

24th Sep 2011 9:12pm

Setok

Member Since: 16 Jan 2009
Location: Helsinki
Posts: 422

Ads90 wrote:

I'm assuming Navaras, Toyota Hilux, Ford Ranger, F-150, etc...

If so, then its clear where LR are coming from, and its a fair bet there will be 3 door, 5 door, pickup and truck-cab versions of the new Def, and suddenly it all makes sense... to me anyway, and I think they will do very well with this!

Whether us Defender die-hards would actually desire one or not is another thing... but I suspect that may have been mission impossible anyway.

Oh I'm very much hoping they will be going up against those cars, and Land Cruisers and similar. The brand has huge opportunities there, which are lost if the right car is not there. The Defender is very much a vehicle suited for commercial use. The DC100, in its current state, is not.

Also, I'd be very surprised if the Wrangler doesn't continue beyond 2015, unlike what you suggest. Probably the G Wagon too, in some form or other.

24th Sep 2011 10:16pm

Ads90

Member Since: 16 Jun 2008
Location: Cots-on-the-Wolds
Posts: 812

Setok wrote:

The Defender is very much a vehicle suited for commercial use.
The DC100, in its current state, is not.

Ok, but being just a CONCEPT - I'm assuming the production version will be AT LEAST as commercial as Navara, Hilux etc., if not AS commercial as current Defender.

Setok wrote:
Also, I'd be very surprised if the Wrangler doesn't continue beyond 2015, unlike what you suggest.

Maybe you are right, but as I understand it, it sells in diminishing numbers, and only appeals to the leisure market anyway.
So it's not what the new Defender is up against.

Setok wrote:
Probably the G Wagon too, in some form or other.

Maybe, but as it's 3 times the cost of all the others, it will be in a niche all of it's own (it was a poor example).
So again, it's not what the new Defender is up against.

I was just trying to appreciate where LR's motives lie... what their main competition will be.

24th Sep 2011 10:56pm

Ads90

Member Since: 16 Jun 2008
Location: Cots-on-the-Wolds
Posts: 812

ken wrote:
Ads I fear you are on the right line we are a too small minority that could be seen as unsustainable I think / guess that LR are going to try and tap acdifferent segment TBH I'm not offended by the concept and see it as just that a concept.

Yeah I'm not saying it's right or wrong - the wooly-hat in me wishes they could just add air bags to the current and built it for ever and ever!
I'm just getting my head around the fact that the current appeals only to a minority, as you say - the new one is going to be aimed fair and square at the bigger market that is currently occupied by Navara Hilux Landcruisers.
If it does this job well, it will be a success - surely it is these cars that have taken the most from the Defender share of the market over the past decades?

I also think that despite the natural scepticism, most folks here will go and have a good poke around the final versions in 4 years time, and even consider one as a future purchase - even if just because it will still wear the green oval, and hopefully be worthy of it.

24th Sep 2011 11:15pm

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