 | Home > Puma (Tdci) > Output shaft failure, Forum Survey |
 
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| LR90XS2011 Member Since: 05 Apr 2011 Location: bickenhill Posts: 3639   
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the clutch and shaft could not cause an increase in economy , better oils potentially could, unless of course your driving has changed because you are running the clutch in? DEFENDER 90 TDCI XS,
I hope everyone is well and your land rovers make you happy |
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4th Nov 2021 6:37pm |
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| Julie Member Since: 07 Oct 2017 Location: Nantes Posts: 477  
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My Ashcroft kit did outlast the original version (i.e. Not lubricated).
This makes me think that lubrifation is a relevant issue P.S. @nitram17 : One cannot simply drill holes and install grease nipples because thé thing hides inside a housing as you can see at thé beginning of this video |
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12th Nov 2021 8:40pm |
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| blackwolf Member Since: 03 Nov 2009 Location: South West England Posts: 17338 
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You're not dreaming, several people have done this and it is well described in other threads. I also know that at least one main dealer was doing this circa 2010 as a semi-official mod. Once you've drilled and tapped the outer part of the coupling for one (or two diametrically opposite) nipples you need to bore an access hole in the housing at an appropriate place to line up with the nipple(s). The access hole is then tapped for a plug, or fitted with a bung. |
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12th Nov 2021 9:21pm |
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| Dinnu Member Since: 24 Dec 2019 Location: Lija Posts: 3407  
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Drilling, as with using a fluted (twisted) drill? If yes, that explains a lot on the hardness and hence wear resistance of the components.
I tried to drill an old LT230 input gear using a cobalt bit. It could not even make a scratch. 1988 90 Hard Top, 19J Diesel Turbo, Shire Blue - Restoration ongoing 2012 90 CSW, 2.2TDCI, Santorini Black |
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12th Nov 2021 10:16pm |
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| Ianh Member Since: 17 Sep 2018 Location: Essex Posts: 1981
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I’m assuming you would use a needle grease fitting instead of a standard coupling to ensure it does not get stuck on the grease nipple/ zerk.
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12th Nov 2021 10:28pm |
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| Bluest Member Since: 23 Apr 2016 Location: Lancashire Posts: 4204 
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You need a carbide drill really, but it’s perfectly possible. I drilled the hardened PTO shaft on a tractor with a re ground masonry drill as I’m cheap, but you can buy proper carbide ones. I wouldn't use one in a hand held drill though, they are very brittle. 2007 110 TDCi Station Wagon XS |
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12th Nov 2021 10:48pm |
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| blackwolf Member Since: 03 Nov 2009 Location: South West England Posts: 17338
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Photos of a coupling modified by 'ian series 1' here.
I think that many of the other images have been lost from other threads over time due to posters deleting them from their galleries. |
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12th Nov 2021 11:07pm |
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| nitram17 Member Since: 08 Jun 2014 Location: newcastle Posts: 2261 |
Hi blackwolf I can see the benefits of this technique but the key is feedback from people who have done this. I guess the numbers are small but it would be interesting how they got on.
I like the idea of the one piece solution from lof but ideally you would want feedback from trucks that have replaced the shaft at least once to see the longevity of the one piece shaft and to see if they have simply moved the problem up the chain. |
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13th Nov 2021 12:28am |
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| nitram17 Member Since: 08 Jun 2014 Location: newcastle Posts: 2261 |
sorry j obviously it would have to be done with the t box and shaft on the bench. |
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13th Nov 2021 12:48am |
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| Dinnu Member Since: 24 Dec 2019 Location: Lija Posts: 3407
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I like the idea of greasing. However the idea of greasing is that with the new grease, you push the contaminants and the old grease by the new grease. The way I see that Ian Series 1 have installed the grease nipple, it might only push out the contaminants that are on the outer edge of the splined cup, just outwards from the snap ring groove. Installing the grease nipple further down the cup can create another issue, that of hydraulically pushing the shaft out of the cup, reducing the contact surface area of the splines. If I am not sure if I am dreaming, but I think I read somewhere where this chap copiously greased the coupling, and then a CV boot was installed to keep the huge amount of grease in place. I think that was a good idea, especially if coupled with a few holes in the cup to add flow/migration of the grease in and out of the splines. On my Puma, I have the Ashcroft adaptor... (it actually had a couple of versions, but right now with the latest).... but I do sometimes wonder how effective it will be. The reason is that it will be difficult in the Ashcroft design to have any decent flow of oil to wash off the contaminants which would then be drained in the next oil change. So wonder if they will still fail same way as the early R380s and earlier gearboxes with the undrilled LT230 input gear. I am sure those gearboxes had some amount of oil leaking past the input gear bearings, but not enough to flow and no way to get the contaminants out. Usually it is the contaminants that accelerate wear, and that is why regular oil changes are important. Then there is the LOF... great design in terms of no intermediate splines to wear, but still the question if it would shift the problem elsewhere, especially on those boxes that are not as well aligned as others. For me, if wear cannot be avoided, I prefer that it happens on the cheapest part to replace. After all, it should be easy to replace an output shaft in a day, although I am the kind that turn a day job into a month long overhaul. 1988 90 Hard Top, 19J Diesel Turbo, Shire Blue - Restoration ongoing 2012 90 CSW, 2.2TDCI, Santorini Black |
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13th Nov 2021 2:02am |
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| nitram17 Member Since: 08 Jun 2014 Location: newcastle Posts: 2261 |
Fluid always takes the path of least resistance and the centripetal forces will be massive ,but i don't think there is much chance of pushing the spline out of the cup as there is litttle room for end float movement of the shaft.
We really need more data on the fitting of the one piece lof shaft to whether it moves the problem up the chain but my pure guess would be not. I personally think the problem is misalignment that causes friction and heat and the dreaded red dust that destroys the splines. I hope the gearbox is more forgiving and there wont be a heat build up because its bathed in oil.. In truth you cannot trust a defender on say a long holiday journey that the shaft will not go and spoil your holiday so i personally be in favor of anything that increases your confidence. I would be in favor of drilling a small inspection port into the housing so you could take a look at the shaft with a fiberoptic camera. I wonder if there is anyway of finding out the true scale of the problem with the output shaft ..i know on here we have done surveys but i dont think we know the percentage of puma trucks that happliy do 70 thousand miles plus without a wobble of their shaft. |
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13th Nov 2021 8:36am |
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| blackwolf Member Since: 03 Nov 2009 Location: South West England Posts: 17338
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I'm neither endorsing nor criticising the grease nipple mod, just reassuring Nitram17 that he isn't dreaming, it has been done, and at least one main dealer told me he was doing it. I suspect that all four mitigations (greasing copiously on assembly with standard parts, fitting nipples, the LOF shaft, and the Ashcroft shaft) will greatly extend the life of the coupling.
Sadly I don't think anyone has carried out, or been in a position to carry out, any scientific investigation into the root cause of the failures or assess the effect of the mitigations objectively. To do so would, as a minimum, require a vehicle with a known history of regular, low-mileage failures, both for a rigorous root cause analysis and for testing of mitigations. We've had reports of such vehicles through the forum and it certainly appears that the Ashcroft shaft has prevented the continuation of failures at the same frequency, but the evidence is hardly scientific. |
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13th Nov 2021 9:27am |
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| nitram17 Member Since: 08 Jun 2014 Location: newcastle Posts: 2261 |
Land rover i guess would have some decent input from warranty claims ...but i guess they could care less
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13th Nov 2021 10:04am |
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| blackwolf Member Since: 03 Nov 2009 Location: South West England Posts: 17338
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Landrover will simply know from dealer data how many failures have been repaired under warranty by dealers, they probably won't know how many non-warranty repairs have been done by dealers, and they will have no idea how many repairs have been done by people or firms which are not dealers.
Back in 2010 my friendly main dealer told me that the adaptor shaft and the VCV (and fuel system in general) were the two biggest causes of breakdown they were dealing with on post-2007 Defenders, but I have no idea of course just how big that made the problem. Even though the adaptor shaft is a well-known weakness and is widely discussed in enthusiasts' forums etc., and there are many people who have had trouble, I suspect that it is still a relatively small proportion of the total number of post-2007 Defenders built. Landrover's official view, at least in public, is that there simply isn't a problem, but it is impossible to know from this whether the problem is honestly so small as to be not significant, or so big as to be worth denying! I am not even going to speculate on this, I'll leave that to the conspiracy theorists. I very much doubt that LR has done any serious analysis into the "non-problem" in respect of trying to find out why these failures occur, why would they if it is not a problem? They might, at most, have reviewed the design and reviewed the specifications (including tolerances) that they send to the external suppliers of the relevant parts, but I doubt if they have checked that the parts they receive conform to the specs. I suppose that at some stage someone must have tacitly acknowledged that there was a lubrication problem, since we do know that many were unlubricated on assembly, and the addition of the "special grease" to the parts list was a revision. There is plenty of evidence to suggest that vehicle which wear out standard parts quickly will do so repeatedly, and those which last a long time similarly do so repeatedly. This indicates, to my mind at least, that it is not the quality of the shaft and coupling itself which is the variable. What we lack is reliable data on what happens when a shaft-hungry vehicle is fitted with one of the solutions - what effect this has on the longevity of the coupling. - all we know is that some people who previously reported low-mileage failures have then stopped reporting them, which rather suggests an improvement (or they've sold the vehicle, etc). What would be interesting would be to see some accurate alignment data from a vehicle which has a know appetite for couplings and to compare that with similar measurements from a vehicle which is known to have a negligible appetite for couplings, since this should confirm whether or not alignment issues are the root cause. Personally I cannot see anything else that could be the cause, but scientific confirmation would be nice. I bet that the Grenadier won't have this issue, though. |
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13th Nov 2021 11:52am |
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