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ashtrans
Site Sponsor

Member Since: 08 Nov 2008
Location: Harpenden
Posts: 258

nitram17 wrote:
deliberately

Sorry fella and im not trying to be awkward, and im only only going by your statements

"we have issues with maybe 1 in 400 but as mentioned, this is due to installation / fitting issues,

So I would say the question is not, how many leak ? but how many customers install incorrectly"

but it sounds as if you admit there were design problems in the earlier versions and not simply as you say the fault of the quality of the fitting by the buyers .Would you like to clarify?and have you recalled all the silver and blue versions?or st least informed the buyers where possible?

to clarify : the earlier Silver and Blue versions did have some leaks in those vehicles that had a lot of misalignment, the 1 in 400 comment referred to the current red version, no we have not recalled all earlier versions as these are now over 3 or 4 years old and not all leaked but those that have, have either had replacement collars free of charge of if over 3 years old the new parts have been heavily discounted even if over the 12 month warranty.

nitram17 wrote:
and as blackwolf has said wont your design simply slow down damage due to misalignment rather than cure it..

no, for 2 reasons, its the same cure as LR did with the LT230 cross drilled gear on the LT77 and R380, the shaft does not wear at all if the gear is cross drilled and secondly, we have not had one of our shafts returned with any wear, let alone total failure.

nitram17 wrote:
there not a way to design( im clearly not an engineer) a megga strong propshaft (instead of shaft)to cater for the misalignement and split the transfer box in two horizontally so the bottom half of the transfer box can be accessed in situ on the truck and the joint greased or replaced?

sounds complicated, unnecessary, expensive and may introduce more problems that it cures, not something I would do.

nitram17 wrote:
you could do that with the transfer box with your version as i know i would personally pay for an updated transfer box casing that meant you could have confidence and peace of mind in your truck for a long journey and you could access the output shaft on the truck for inspection and repair of leaks by undoing a few bolts in 20 minutes.

I see no reason to redesign our kit, we sell thousands with very few issues, if there was a better solution, I would look at it but I think our kit offers the best long term engineered solution to this design problem. Dave

17th Nov 2021 7:06am

nitram17

Member Since: 08 Jun 2014
Location: newcastle
Posts: 2261

Thanks for taking the time to clarify most appreciated

I bow to your far superior knowledge but i would personally several hundred pounds for easy access to the output shaft in the field .

17th Nov 2021 7:17am

blackwolf

Member Since: 03 Nov 2009
Location: South West England
Posts: 17467

2007 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 DCPU Stornoway Grey

nitram17 wrote:
...Is there not a way to design( im clearly not an engineer) a megga strong propshaft (instead of shaft)to cater for the misalignement and split the transfer box in two horizontally so the bottom half of the transfer box can be accessed in situ on the truck and the joint greased or replaced?

Or you could do that with the transfer box with your version as i know i would personally pay for an updated transfer box casing that meant you could have confidence and peace of mind in your truck for a long journey and you could access the output shaft on the truck for inspection and repair of leaks by undoing a few bolts in 20 minutes.

Whilst nothing is impossible I shudder to think what the development costs involved in this would be, and those costs would have to be paid for by the customer. I wonder how many "upgraded" transfer boxes would be sold if they were, say £12,000 a pop. Not many, I think.

A lubricated joint (which remains clean and rust free) should cope for an indefinite mileage with a small amount of movement, since the destructive fretting will only take place in the absence of lube or the presence of abrasive. Personally (and as an engineer) I feel that a jointed shaft of this type is a preferable solution to a one-piece shaft, since any misalignment in the latter case would have to be taken up by flex in the shaft and is, I feel, more likely to cause collateral wear.

17th Nov 2021 7:41am

nitram17

Member Since: 08 Jun 2014
Location: newcastle
Posts: 2261

The world of motoring certainly dodged a bullet when I decided not to become an engineer

I naively thought some aftermarket company could manufacture a shaft not unlike the lof version with added universal joint to cater for the misalignment for a few hundred quid or so.

Is it that costly to recast an aluminium case and strengthen it to allow for some decent access to the output shaft to be created whilst it's in situ on the truck .

Blackwolf as I respect your opinion ....given the information we have today what do you think is the best way to reduce the likelihood that your output shaft isn't going to go bang in the middle of nowhere..... In leaning towards the cheapest option by Ian series ..the grease nipple option as it appears if Ashcroft shafts are not wearing it must be the lubrication so Ian's solution gives you the lubrication and no leak or extra cost risk.

17th Nov 2021 1:50pm

blackwolf

Member Since: 03 Nov 2009
Location: South West England
Posts: 17467

My advice - buy a Puma that is known not to eat shafts, lubricate the coupling properly, and then guard the extension housing with your life (I believe that it is variability in the extension housing that is causing the misalignment, since there are countless thousand MT82 gearboxes and LT230 transfer boxes in other applications that seem to be OK - this is a new problem with the Puma and the only unique part is the housing).

If you already have the vehicle and it is a coupling-eater, my advice would be to check for alignment (Gloucesternige has shown one way this can be done) and keep testing adaptor housings until you find a good one.

I believe that if you can set up the vehicle without alignment issues it really doesn't matter what type of shaft or coupling you have provided that any coupling is lubricated.

17th Nov 2021 3:29pm

nitram17

Member Since: 08 Jun 2014
Location: newcastle
Posts: 2261

17th Nov 2021 3:56pm

Bluest

Member Since: 23 Apr 2016
Location: Lancashire
Posts: 4218

2007 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 XS CSW Java Black

Or just get an Ashcroft adapter properly fitted and not worry too much. it may ultimately be a sticking plaster, but it is well engineered and seems to be proven to substantially delay or even totally eliminate the issue. A periodic inspection of it, say every 50,000 miles (or prior to a major expedition) should be sufficient if you still aren't convinced. 2007 110 TDCi Station Wagon XS

17th Nov 2021 4:55pm

Julie

Member Since: 07 Oct 2017
Location: Nantes
Posts: 502

2012 Defender 110 Puma 2.2 SW Keswick Green

ashtrans wrote:
I see no reason to redesign our kit, we sell thousands with very few issues, if there was a better solution, I would look at it but I think our kit offers the best long term engineered solution to this design problem.

47K miles on your blue kit = 2nd gen.

no issues

I'm going to take you at your word

17th Nov 2021 6:51pm

Dinnu

Member Since: 24 Dec 2019
Location: Lija
Posts: 3431

2012 Defender 90 Puma 2.2 CSW Santorini Black

Wear on the splines is also a function of the contact surface hardness.
Wonder if there was any attempt to case harden the splines. 1988 90 Hard Top, 19J Diesel Turbo, Shire Blue - Restoration ongoing
2012 90 CSW, 2.2TDCI, Santorini Black

17th Nov 2021 10:05pm

blackwolf

Member Since: 03 Nov 2009
Location: South West England
Posts: 17467

I'm fairly sure that they are, certainly the outside of the shaft is.

17th Nov 2021 10:52pm

MK

Member Since: 28 Aug 2008
Location: Santiago
Posts: 2431

2007 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 SW Chawton White

Several applications use male-female splined shafts and they run dry. eg splined shaft from CV cup fitting into a wheel hub on IFS and front wheel drive vehicles. Splines though are considerable longer. I have seen vehicles with many km and show no wear at all. Puma 110" SW

.............................................................
Earth first. Other planets later

18th Nov 2021 11:52am

nitram17

Member Since: 08 Jun 2014
Location: newcastle
Posts: 2261

Any of them built by land rover and fettled by ford?The prevailing theory is that it's misalignment of the casing to .a couple of aftermarket companies believe they have solved the problem .I am reserve the right to be sceptical until we get anacdotal or scientific evidence from either of the companies that they have replaced the LR shaft with one of their own from trucks that have replaced their shafts at least twice in 50000 miles..........and their fix is going strong after another 50000 miles.

18th Nov 2021 1:01pm

piechipsandpeas

Member Since: 12 May 2021
Location: Albany, Western Australia
Posts: 216

2013 Defender 110 Puma 2.2 SW Indus Silver

Dinnu wrote:
Wear on the splines is also a function of the contact surface hardness.
Wonder if there was any attempt to case harden the splines.

One of guys (independent LR mechanic) on the AULRO forum here in Oz posted regarding the hardness of the materials:
“ The Ashcroft kit the material from memory is round that 50 in hardness on the Rockwell scale. The original adaptor floats around 20 - 25 on the Rockwell scale, which is too soft”.
If true, could this part of the cause?

18th Nov 2021 1:35pm

nitram17

Member Since: 08 Jun 2014
Location: newcastle
Posts: 2261

It could contribute.. but lots don't have any bother at all!I'm going with. Mr plum holding a crooked shaft and casing in the garage as cheif suspect

18th Nov 2021 2:01pm

Dinnu

Member Since: 24 Dec 2019
Location: Lija
Posts: 3431

piechipsandpeas wrote:
Dinnu wrote:
Wear on the splines is also a function of the contact surface hardness.
Wonder if there was any attempt to case harden the splines.

One of guys (independent LR mechanic) on the AULRO forum here in Oz posted regarding the hardness of the materials:
“ The Ashcroft kit the material from memory is round that 50 in hardness on the Rockwell scale. The original adaptor floats around 20 - 25 on the Rockwell scale, which is too soft”.
If true, could this part of the cause?

I think it was on this forum, potentially on this thread too, that someone commented that it is always the female splines that wear? I do not know on how many shafts that info was based.

Another improvement could be DLC coating?

Commenting about a comment by Dave Aschroft - my 90 had the latest, red cover. I had to drop the TC soon after purchasing the 90 because of an oil leak. Mine was the 1/400 cases that had a poor installation. The female spline cup was damaged, the red anodized cover was cross threaded, quite a big part of the threads were damaged, and it was out enough to let oil pour out of the main gearbox (the cover was not engaged on the 2 O rings on the splined cup.

Luckily I could save the cover, but had to replace the female splines as the splines on the gearbox mainshaft side were almost 50% gone.

Since correcting, there were no oil leaks.

Click image to enlarge

Click image to enlarge 1988 90 Hard Top, 19J Diesel Turbo, Shire Blue - Restoration ongoing
2012 90 CSW, 2.2TDCI, Santorini Black

18th Nov 2021 2:25pm

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