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Home > Off Topic > EU in or Out

In or Out of the EU

31%

[35]

Out

68%

[75]

Total Votes: 110

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jimbob7

Member Since: 06 Jul 2013
Location: uk
Posts: 2055

In China, how ever,it's the complete opposite...... Pov.spec,ftw. 2006, 110,TD5.

22nd Feb 2016 2:00pm

leeds

Member Since: 28 Dec 2009
Location: West Yorkshire
Posts: 8582

Petronius4 wrote:

I think the idea of sovereignty is outdated,

Just a quick point on sovereignty.

One aspect of being a sovereign nation is the right/decision to go to war with another country.

The UK gave up that right to a large extent when we become members of Nato.

An attack on a Nato country is an attack on all Nato countries.

In recent months the UK has sent air crews and troops to Eastern Europe/Baltic countries due to a perceived threat.

Now if the Turkey/Russia situation blows up so it becomes a real fight the UK will be at war with Russia whether the UK likes it or not!

Brendan

22nd Feb 2016 2:15pm

LoveTheMud

Member Since: 19 Feb 2015
Location: Weybridge Surrey & Pontefract West Yorkshire
Posts: 411

2014 Defender 90 Puma 2.2 XS CSW Santorini Black

being really basic and not looking at anything other than the inport/export deficit, it could be good to leave... the pound will crash and anything we buy from abroad would rocket in price but, that said, British products abroad would become cheap to buy, things like steel, our cars (dependent on where car parts are from)... however the countries debt would become more expensive and potentially more cuts would be needed.... the thing is, no one can know what will happen as there are just too many moving parts, so in the end its, what best suits the individual, and we will have to grin and bear it... I'm predicting an In vote to win on the day though, although I'm out I think.

I forgot to add - Europe and the EuroZone / Single Currency was solely set up to aid the German economy as the DeutscheMark (DEM) was too strong...

22nd Feb 2016 2:53pm

LoveTheMud

Member Since: 19 Feb 2015
Location: Weybridge Surrey & Pontefract West Yorkshire
Posts: 411

Interlet wrote:
Obsessive follower of politics. More so than Land Rovers actually. Sovereign nation state democracy would not have fueled the deep seated divisions caused essentially by the EU and particularly the Euro-zone through wildly differing standards of living between rich Northern European countries, and Med and now Eastern countries. System is not feasible. At a time when Europe should be doing vastly more to protect itself, but assert its collectivism, it's being divided by a political union that should never have happened in the first place. My work would not stop, if we left. We need to tell everyone else to get back sovereignty and start working together respectfully, instead of with mountains of suspicion.

If you believe in democracy over all other possible benefits, then I cannot see how one can justify remaining.

A few years back, when the single currency and greater integration as terms were being thrown around, a leading group of economists gave there view. about 2 years ago, the same group of economists were asked if their view had changed at all. THey all gave the exact answer they gave before. If you were to pick a letter from the alphabet and then group all the countries in the world by that letter, form a single currency and union based on the letter, it would be more likely to succeed than Europe.

Another thing to add, the EU only works if it works together and in the same direction. RIght now, the old blocks are forming and taking things like the immigration crisis into their own hands, going against the EU. The cracks were always there, they are just canyons now...

22nd Feb 2016 3:32pm

Leviathan

Member Since: 24 Oct 2015
Location: Staffs
Posts: 248

The same economic scare tactics will be used as in the Euro currency debate. Along with the so called security threat.

My view, like any honest person, is based upon a gut reaction because no 'expert' will give unbiased facts. I think the EU will eventually bring all its members to the lowest common denominator.

22nd Feb 2016 3:37pm

JJ

Member Since: 18 May 2009
Location: Winchester
Posts: 932

1987 Defender 110 V8 Petrol CSW Corris Grey

camelman wrote:
Interesting (if long winded) report here:

http://www.global-counsel.co.uk/system/fil...e_2015.pdf

Thanks for that, good to see a different perspective and reflect on the impact on everyone not just from a me me me point of view.

22nd Feb 2016 3:41pm

LoveTheMud

Member Since: 19 Feb 2015
Location: Weybridge Surrey & Pontefract West Yorkshire
Posts: 411

Global Counsel is owned by Lord Mandelson... so its always going to be written with perhaps the smallest amount of bias

22nd Feb 2016 3:59pm

mse

Member Since: 06 Apr 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 5068

2016 Defender 110 Puma 2.2 XS CSW Scotia Grey

Quote:
Also we in the UK "Gold Plate" and enforce any regulation whilst the others just pay lip service to them

Very true Mike

22nd Feb 2016 5:40pm

NJS22

Member Since: 26 Oct 2012
Location: Cornwall
Posts: 169

2016 Defender 90 Puma 2.2 Adventure Corris Grey

I thought this thread would prove interesting

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Wife won't let me have any more...!!!

22nd Feb 2016 6:18pm

JJ

Member Since: 18 May 2009
Location: Winchester
Posts: 932

LoveTheMud wrote:
Global Counsel is owned by Lord Mandelson... so its always going to be written with perhaps the smallest amount of bias

Totally agree,always read between the lines but at least it has got a lot of stats and facts and figures , this whole debate will probably descend in to fear and scaremongering very rapidly in a similar way to the Scottish independence debate with both sides giving out opinion as if it was fact.

What I loved about the Scottish debate was that the whole point of independence was to build a fairer society? so to do this the SNP needed all the cash !!!!! Society has to cross borders to be fair in my opinion and then we all benefit.

22nd Feb 2016 7:20pm

mse

Member Since: 06 Apr 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 5068

Its another point, its feasible that an out vote, not just making holidays a bit more difficult, exchange rate a little bit more uncertain, loosing some benefits like tax free shopping and access to trade and protection on things like phone prices...but we could see Great Britain become little England when Scotland probably re-vote to leave etc

i think the potential

factor will easily be more than staying in and getting to vote for stuff...if DC was better he and the country would spend time getting European friends rather than aiming to be outcasts Mike

22nd Feb 2016 7:50pm

jeffersj

Member Since: 23 Jan 2015
Location: Near Preston
Posts: 431

1996 Defender 90 300 Tdi HT Bronze Green

I voted that we join the EU way back in 1975 (I think thats the date) but then it was a much simpler agreement. the main factor was the free trading and the free movement of labour, not migrants.

My opinion has changed completely now, the EU is a money pit with far too much bureaucracy and people being paid vast amounts for doing nothing. It is great for Spain, Italy and Greece who did not qualify for entry without fiddling the figures and have received the greatest benefits but GB is the second major contributor after Germany and yet we are no longer a great power.

For the last 20 years or so the EU has refused to sign off its audited accounts because of financial irregularities and mis management, this would not be accepted in business so why is it allowed to go on.

The doom and gloom mongers think that the world will come to an end if we leave, IT WILL NOT. Jeff
Ex 1968 Series 2A
Ex 90 TD5
Ex D3
Ex D4

23rd Feb 2016 9:05am

mse

Member Since: 06 Apr 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 5068

Its not that the world will come to an end - its just things will be just more of a ball ache, more difficult and less protected.

I dont want to do a tour of Europe for example and have to apply for a visa! i don't want to buy things from Europe and have to pay more for it the list goes on.

I trust Westmister just as little as europe - but just because its not perfect doesnt mean we should jump ship.

How many people do the lottery...how many win...just because not everyone wins the jackpot doesnt mean they shouldnt do it Mike

23rd Feb 2016 9:19am

o4dn

Member Since: 08 Jan 2010
Location: South West
Posts: 554

2009 Defender 90 Puma 2.4 SW Alaska White

DonH2000 wrote:
You just have to drive around France, Spain, Italy, Greece and Portugal to see examples such as tractors with no roll hoops, car,trucks and 4x4's without working rear lights, motorcyclists with no helmets and more than 2 people on the bikes!

Not seeing that around here, you make the rest of Europe look like the third world...

jeffersj wrote:
[...] GB is the second major contributor after Germany and yet we are no longer a great power.

Humm, you sure of that?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budget_of_th....282014.29

Seems to me GB (with 11,341.6 M€) contributes less than Germany (25,815.9 M€), France (19,573.6 M€) and even Italy (14,368.2 M€) unless my skills in algebra defeat me once again...

What about the UK rebate: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UK_rebate :

Quote:
If the rebate were removed without changes to the CAP then the UK would pay a larger net contribution than France. The UK would make a net contribution of approximately €10bn compared to the current contribution of €3.86bn, versus a current French net contribution of €6.46bn.[9] Germany has a GDP approximately 25% higher than either France or the UK, but per capita income is comparable to the other two countries. France technically makes a net contribution to the EU budget about twice that of the UK,[9] and is the greatest contributor towards the UK rebate, which means it would benefit most from its abolition. It should be noted however that if France were not required to contribute towards the rebate it would still contribute more to the EU budget than the UK.

(emphasis is mine)

I wonder what the people from other countries around Europe would say if asked whether UK should remain within the EU. To some, it looks like UK is getting a rebate and is not even part of the Euro zone nor Schengen area, so it's already a player apart in the game.

Besides, with UK outside of EU, why would France have to retain all those refugees willing to cross the channel... â€œA Land Rover immobilized is a moral defeat for the driver and bad publicity for the vehicle, [â€¦] it's up to you to do justice to your Land Rover!â€ - Land Rover Driving Technique.
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1979 Land Rover Series 3 88"

23rd Feb 2016 10:05am

Projectblue

Member Since: 22 Nov 2011
Location: Devon
Posts: 1096

I found this interesting reading. Some of it can be perceived as negative if one was so inclined.

“What did the EU ever do for us? "

By Simon Sweeny -

"What did the EU ever do for us?:
Providing 57% of our trade;
structural funding to areas hit by industrial decline;
clean beaches and rivers;
cleaner air;
lead free petrol;
restrictions on landfill dumping;
a recycling culture;
cheaper mobile charges;
cheaper air travel;
improved consumer protection and food labelling;
a ban on growth hormones and other harmful food additives;
better product safety;
single market competition bringing quality improvements and better industrial performance;
break up of monopolies;
Europe-wide patent and copyright protection;
no paperwork or customs for exports throughout the single market;
price transparency and removal of commission on currency exchanges across the eurozone;
freedom to travel, live and work across Europe;
funded opportunities for young people to undertake study or work placements abroad;
access to European health services;
labour protection and enhanced social welfare;
smoke-free workplaces;
equal pay legislation;
holiday entitlement;
the right not to work more than a 48-hour week without overtime;
strongest wildlife protection in the world;
improved animal welfare in food production;
EU-funded research and industrial collaboration;
EU representation in international forums;
bloc EEA negotiation at the WTO;
EU diplomatic efforts to uphold the nuclear non-proliferation treaty;
European arrest warrant;
cross border policing to combat human trafficking, arms and drug smuggling; counter terrorism intelligence;
European civil and military co-operation in post-conflict zones in Europe and Africa;
support for democracy and human rights across Europe and beyond;
investment across Europe contributing to better living standards and educational, social and cultural capital.
All of this is nothing compared with its greatest achievements: the EU has for 60 years been the foundation of peace between European neighbours after centuries of bloodshed.
It furthermore assisted the extraordinary political, social and economic transformation of 13 former dictatorships, now EU members, since 1980.

Simon Sweeney,

Lecturer in international political economy, University of York New project and it's green: www.projectoverland.info

23rd Feb 2016 10:20pm

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