DEFENDER2.NET - View topic - Defender 130 TDCI Puma non starter

↓ Advertise on Defender2 ↓

Home · FAQ · New Posts · My Posts · PMs · Search · Members · Map · Calendar · Profile · Donate · Register · Log In

Home > Technical > Defender 130 TDCI Puma non starter

Page 1 of 2

Print this entire topic ·

audi1boy

Member Since: 11 Dec 2020
Location: Somerset
Posts: 24

2008 Defender 130 Puma 2.4 HCPU Barolo Black

Defender 130 TDCI Puma non starter

Morning,

2008 Defender 130 TDCI 2.4.

So I had been having some issues with my Defender.

It would always start on the button even without waiting for the glow plugs. But it developed an issue where it would hunt for revs for the first few minutes on start up and often if left to idle would die. After running for a few minutes it would run all day long with no loss of power etc.

It had another issue with the ignition staying on when you removed the key. Would go out if you turned the indicator on. Engine would always shut off just not the ignition.

So i replaced the indicator stalk, light switch and the ignition barrel and that sorted the ignition switch shutting off issue.

With regard to the dying on start up I believed it to be the VCV. So I ordered a new one and changed. It was then a bit worse to be honest. Even dying while driving which it has never done. So I cleaned the old one and refitted and it was great for a day, not even dying. Then when i got back in the next morning it started and then died and would not restart.

I have checked the fuses and relays under the seat and all appear to be ok. Checked fuses and relays under the dash all ok. I even fitted a VCV off another Defender and still no start. To note the old one i removed from my 130 worked perfectly on the other Defender 110.

Tried bleeding the fuel through by pressurising the tank. Disconnected the fuel lines at the filter and blew through with air. Checked the filter fitment and replaced.

I have bench tested the old VCV and it seems to work fine. I have run voltage directly to the PCV on the vehicle and still no luck. Tried running clean fuel direct to the Diesel pump to rule out the tank and still nothing. Checked the VCV connector and there is 12V at the terminal. You can hear the VCV click on when you turn the ignition.

If you crack the injectors while cranking you will get a bit of fuel run off at injectors 3 and 4 but nothing really on 1 and 2. So it seems there is no great amount of fuel getting up the the rail.

To note the truck was running great in terms of power etc prior to swapping the VCV.

Injection pump? Just strange it would just go like that with not much warning and especially after changing the VCV.

My gut feeling is its a fuel system issue or electrical and shutting something off and stopping fuel.

Any help would be much appreciated.

1st Dec 2022 7:29am

blackwolf

Member Since: 03 Nov 2009
Location: South West England
Posts: 17338

2007 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 DCPU Stornoway Grey

I assume no DTCs? What fuel rail pressures are you seeing?

Everything about this screams VCV, I'd try another new one from a reputable supplier.

By the way, how on earth do you bench test a VCV? It's a very sensitive flow-regulating valve and cannot be sensibly tested in isolation.

1st Dec 2022 3:42pm

audi1boy

Member Since: 11 Dec 2020
Location: Somerset
Posts: 24

Will order yet another VCV

1st Dec 2022 3:48pm

blackwolf

Member Since: 03 Nov 2009
Location: South West England
Posts: 17338

It's rather hard to determine what it is on the ECM that fuse 38 actually does, however the fact that you are not seeing 12 Volts on the fuse when the glow plugs should be on is very suggestive that the GP relay is on the blink.

I imagine that you have checked that you are getting 12V on the input to the relay from Link 1 (there are other things also fed from Link 1 so it is unlikely that the fusible link has failed without you noticing). Provided that you have power on C0215-1 from the link, check also that BJB Fuse 5 is good (this powers the main relay which in turn powers the activation coil on the glow plug relay, with the ECM providing the ground when the glowplugs are required). If the main relay is not functioning correctly you won't get glow plugs, but also I don't think the engine will even crank, so if it cranks (which I assume it does) then the main relay is probably good.

Without knowing what the "GPFB" signal on the ECM actually does, it is hard to say if its absence will cause your problems. If you ad access to another vehicle you could pull fuse 38 and see if it then fails to start. You could also try applying power to fuse 38 from an external source to see if the engine than starts, but be mindful of the fact that one of the fuse's terminals is connected to the glow plugs and hence will have a low impedance to ground so a heavy current will flow. The other terminal of the fuse is the one connected to the ECM and I would expect to be a fairly high impedance, this would be the one to apply 12V if you decide to try this.

I have a vague recollection that one of the large fuse holders which lies loose on the floor of the driver's seat locker is also connected with the heater plugs and doesn't feature on any of the electrical diagrams. I may be wrong on this, but it might be worth checking that there are no failed fuses under the seat.

If you can get hold of one, the next obvious thing to replace is the glow plug relay.

*** EDIT *** I see you've edited you previous post whilst I was typing, I am not sure what "end" means! Perhaps you've solved the problem?

12th Dec 2022 12:07pm

audi1boy

Member Since: 11 Dec 2020
Location: Somerset
Posts: 24

Hi Blackwolf thanks for the help.

So i found the glow-plug fuse had blown which was causing that issue. It was me clumsily earthing the 12v point on the engine. Changed the fuse.

Still no start.

I have changed the crank sensor, camshaft sensor, fuel rail pressure sensor and the vcv.

Im only getting 1.5mpa of rail pressure on cranking.

Immobiliser light goes out when you turn the key and arms itself when you lock it.So dont think its the immobiliser.

13th Dec 2022 9:48am

blackwolf

Member Since: 03 Nov 2009
Location: South West England
Posts: 17338

Does it crank but not start, or does it not crank?

13th Dec 2022 11:59am

audi1boy

Member Since: 11 Dec 2020
Location: Somerset
Posts: 24

It cranks and turns over but no start.

No fault codes either

13th Dec 2022 12:09pm

blackwolf

Member Since: 03 Nov 2009
Location: South West England
Posts: 17338

Unfortunately £engine cranks but won't start" is a very common Defender TDCi problem, as evidenced by the number of threads on the subject, and there are many possible causes including:

Plus probably many others. They also tend to be difficult to diagnose.

That being said, the fuel rail pressures you are seeing are very low, I think too low to run the engine (I'd expect around 15MPa at idle), and you have had VCV issues.

Did you change the VCV a second time, it isn't clear from your posts above?

The purpose of the VCV is to control the pressure in the common rail by adapting the flow of fuel fro the LP stage of the fuel pump to the HP stage, if it is defective it can cause low common rail pressures. Similarly if the ECM, for some reason, is not modulating it correctly, the same thing can happen.

Have you checked the fuel system for water, dirt, leaks, and a blocked filter? Water or dirt will kill a VCV is seconds, and if you have had water or dirt then you should change the VCV as a matter of routine.

The fuel system on the TDCi is the least-monitored system by the ECM and as such an absence of fault codes tends to point to a fuel problem.

13th Dec 2022 12:32pm

audi1boy

Member Since: 11 Dec 2020
Location: Somerset
Posts: 24

Hi,

I have disconnected the fuel lines to the filter and the pump etc and blown back through. I have bled it using the Ford suction hand pump and plenty is getting up to fuel pump.

I have just ordered a final Denso VCV to 100 percent rule that out.

The strange thing on the VCV is there is a recess cut into the VCV for what looks like an o-ring but the o ring supplied is too small to fit into it.

Just to double check which order do the seals on the VCV go? I.e working from the front to the back of the vehicle is it o-ring then flange seal? I will double check this.

I put the VCV taken off this truck on another Defender and it fired and worked first time.

Im now searching for Cummins 6BT to MT82 Conversion plates

Last edited by audi1boy on 14th Dec 2022 6:37am. Edited 1 time in total

13th Dec 2022 12:39pm

blackwolf

Member Since: 03 Nov 2009
Location: South West England
Posts: 17338

There should be single O-ring fitted to the VCV in the position shown in the photo in the first post in this thread. Between the mounting flange of the VCV and the pump body there is a gasket.

A 6BT would certainly solve any VCV issues!

13th Dec 2022 1:12pm

audi1boy

Member Since: 11 Dec 2020
Location: Somerset
Posts: 24

Sorry I meant the o-ring and gasket on the mounting face of the diesel pump.

So it looks as though the o-ring and gasket can only go on one way. but if you could confirm this is correct.

I know the seal on the snout is missing as this is an old one i had that had a damaged o-ring.

Thanks

Pictures in gallery

13th Dec 2022 4:37pm

audi1boy

Member Since: 11 Dec 2020
Location: Somerset
Posts: 24

So I have fitted the Denso VCV and still no luck.

So changed

VCV twice
Crank Sensor
Camshaft Sensor
Fuel Rail Pressure Sensor
Replaced one injector with an old one out of the engine and it does not spray
Checked all fuses
Blew fuel lines back through to tank with cap off

Bleed fuel supply up to pump.

Swapped out relays under seat and checked terminals

All fuses ok

Cranks but no fire. Maximum of 1.5mpa of rail pressure and injectors not firing.

No fault codes other than a failed Pilot learn as it cut out mid process.

Id replace the injection pump but I am concerned it is something electronic stopping the fuel supply and causing the low pressure and injectors to not open.

Id put another engine in it but again concerned it could be an ecu issue

19th Dec 2022 9:06am

mwestcrew

Member Since: 09 Dec 2019
Location: South Warwickshire
Posts: 245

2011 Defender 130 Puma 2.4 HCPU Baltic Blue

Try some EasyStart.
Probably get some howls of disapproval, but it might get the pump spinning fast enough to get some pressure up and allow the VCV to operate.
In my experience it certainly won’t do any harm. 2011 130 Utility Body
2005 110 Van

19th Dec 2022 9:23am

audi1boy

Member Since: 11 Dec 2020
Location: Somerset
Posts: 24

Morning. Yeah Im not afraid of easy start and tried it but nothing. Will just run on the easy start and then die.

19th Dec 2022 9:24am

blackwolf

Member Since: 03 Nov 2009
Location: South West England
Posts: 17338

Based on what you've done I'd be inclined to think ECM or fuel pump. I've heard of more failed ECMs than pumps.

19th Dec 2022 10:35am

Page 1 of 2

All times are GMT

Jump to

< Previous Topic | Next Topic >

Posting Rules

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum