 | Home > INEOS Grenadier > Who is going to buy it? |
 
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| Philip Member Since: 09 Mar 2018 Location: England Posts: 510  
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Ultimately depends on how narrow your definition of “functional” is. If it’s a 4WD car with some ground clearance, 5/7 seats, a bit of space in the back and the ability to tow 3.5t, that’s quite restrictive - and there are lots of crude, unpleasant old clankers that are “functionally equivalent”. What I can tell you is that the breadth of ability a new Defender has is an awful lot wider than that of an old Discovery, and the fundamental part of that is because it doesn’t have entirely outmoded underpinnings. Which the Grenadire does. |
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11th Jun 2021 11:42am |
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| Retroanaconda Member Since: 04 Jan 2012 Location: Scotland Posts: 2642 
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I’m not sure it’s a clear cut as that. Yes the solid beam axles are old tech but they are still used in commercial/utility applications around the world as they have a number of advantages in those applications.
The new Defender is primarily a passenger-carrying car not a utility vehicle and so it makes sense for it to have independent suspension. The Disco 2 had beam axles as a development of the D1/RRC platform but no one would argue that the comfort and handling improved when the D3 went to an independently-sprung setup. Blackwolf: It must have been a very highly-specced D2 to need to spend £80k to get an L663 to the same level? Mine is a base spec model and has all the toys I could ever envisage wanting. |
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11th Jun 2021 11:58am |
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| Bluest Member Since: 23 Apr 2016 Location: Lancashire Posts: 4209 
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The one thing the outmoded underpinnings may provide, that JLR products do not, is durability in arduous use. Granted there is likely a very small market willing to pay a high price for that, but that is what Ineos are counting on. They aren’t going for big sales figures. The Land Rover’s complex suspension and terrain response is awesome, I don’t think anyone disagrees with that, but is not well suited to heavy duty applications. I’m not saying you cant use a new Defender for that, but that over time a simpler more robust vehicle would be the better choice, especially or a fleet, even if technically it is not as competent.
This car is trying to rival the 70 series Land Cruiser and Merc G-professional with some crossover with Nissan Patrol, Land Cruiser 300, Mitsubishi Challenger, G-professional! double cab pick ups etc, not the new Defender. I don’t even think Grenadier is much of a rival for Wranglers and Broncos, as they are more aimed at the fun/ leisure market. Personally it is these rivalries that interest me and I think Ineos have their work cut out still. The keep arguing whether is technically compariable/superior to the new Defender seems pointless to me. Different tools for different jobs. Might as well say it doesn’t handle as well as a McLaren Senna, or can’t match the fuel consumption of Prius. 2007 110 TDCi Station Wagon XS |
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11th Jun 2021 12:01pm |
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| Philip Member Since: 09 Mar 2018 Location: England Posts: 510
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Solid axles are used in commercial vehicles because it’s an awful lot simpler (read an awful lot cheaper) to make one work carrying heavier loads, and all driving dynamics are secondary to that.
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11th Jun 2021 12:03pm |
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| Philip Member Since: 09 Mar 2018 Location: England Posts: 510
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As for simplicity - those BMW engines and ZF gearboxes are about as far from simple as it’s possible for a powertrain to get in 2021.
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11th Jun 2021 12:06pm |
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| 22900013A Member Since: 23 Dec 2010 Location: Oxfordshire Posts: 3149 
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Out of curiosity what 1960s army truck are you referring to? I thought the Grenadier was all-new? 2011 110 USW 1973 Series III 1-Ton 1972 Series III 1-Ton Cherrypicker 1969 IIA 1-Ton 1966 IIA 88" |
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11th Jun 2021 12:08pm |
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| Philip Member Since: 09 Mar 2018 Location: England Posts: 510
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All-new insomuch as anything with a separate chassis, two solid axles and a steering box can be.
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11th Jun 2021 12:12pm |
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| Supacat Member Since: 16 Oct 2012 Location: West Yorkshire Posts: 11018 
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This in spades, I struggle to understand how this can be deemed a negative. Talking of outmoded underpinnings, the new Defender should have been the first vehicle on the MLA platform (as should have all JLR offerings from 2020 onwards); instead it had a warmed over version of the D7. Nothing wrong with that, but if you are going to knock something based on age alone, then let's not pretend it's cutting edge in today's market. |
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11th Jun 2021 12:32pm |
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| Bluest Member Since: 23 Apr 2016 Location: Lancashire Posts: 4209
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I agree, and think the choice of engine and gearbox is the thing I like the least. Although at least it’s not a DSG. This vehicle does not need 250bhp+. A more utilitarian 4 cylinder option would have been nice with a 6 speed manual box. Even the big V8 diesel in the Land Cruiser can’t muster more than 200bhp, presumably for durability reasons. 2007 110 TDCi Station Wagon XS |
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11th Jun 2021 12:39pm |
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| blackwolf Member Since: 03 Nov 2009 Location: South West England Posts: 17372 
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Hmm, benefits - simpler, cheaper, fewer parts to wear out or fail. Disbenefits = poorer driving dynamics. On a multipurpose vehicle not intended for performance road use, I know which I would rather have. I have never found the road manners of either my Disco2 or my Defender in any way unsatisfactory, and both are on MTs. |
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11th Jun 2021 1:01pm |
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| Bluest Member Since: 23 Apr 2016 Location: Lancashire Posts: 4209
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I think the solid axle is cheaper point is only applicable at the bottom of the market with leaf springs like on the rear of pickups. When you get into 5 link designs with coil springs like Grenadier will have there’s probably not much in it. There’s certainly more actual material in a solid axle set up. I don’t think cost is the driving factor in Ineos’ design choices.
Separate chassis is also not an obsolete choice for the intended market. With a unibody, the ability to customise and adapt becomes very limited and makes offering different body configurations harder. Look at all the specials that were built on Classic Defender chassis that just wouldn’t be possible on unibody design. Of course, both of those bring compromises which aren’t desirable in a mass market vehicle, but that’s not what the Grenadier is. 2007 110 TDCi Station Wagon XS |
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11th Jun 2021 1:14pm |
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| Philip Member Since: 09 Mar 2018 Location: England Posts: 510
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Solid axles are far cheaper in terms of both development and construction - given that, it should be telling that everything (including the US stuff) is moving to independent. Looking at the construction pictures of the Grenadier’s body, I’m also not sure it’s going to lend itself to custom rebodies like an old Defender or a cheapo pickup would. Has there been mention of a chassis cab?
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11th Jun 2021 1:26pm |
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| Grenadier Member Since: 23 Jul 2014 Location: The foot of Mont Blanc... Posts: 5804  
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I would certainly agree with Blackwolf that the D2 and ND are ‘functionally’ equivalent, and this should not be conflated with ‘technologically’ equivalent, which they’re clearly not.
But it’s important to mention that this is relative to the generation in which they were developed and launched, and how they fared against other 4x4s of the day, most notably the Defender of the day. The D2 was designed to be good off road, (as good if not better than the Defender), better on road than the Defender, more comfortable for passengers, more driver luxuries (better AC, auto gearbox option, nicer seats and sound proofing etc), have a spacious boot, option for roof rack and be good at towing. It was a mix of a ‘more comfortable’ Defender and a ‘cheaper’ Range Rover. Bought by people who mainly wanted it as a road biased day-to-day car with good off road abilities, people who couldn’t live with the agricultural nature of the Defender or need the full on luxury of the Range Rover. Which, um, sounds exactly like the new Def to me. As for the ‘breadth’ of abilities of the ND, what would those be exactly? It can drive (capably) on road, (very capably) off road, can carry five passengers in comfort, can have its AC turned on, turned up, turned down and turned off, can play music through speakers, can carry stuff in its boot with seats up or down, can carry stuff on the roof (if you choose the roof rack) and can tow. Apart from the clear, industry leading capability off road (which even a JLR insider said would be used by less than 5% of models sold) that’s a description of every SUV on the planet. Unless I’ve missed something? Or do you mean all the manner of ways it is already being pimped as the new go-to SUV for Footballers and Influencers? Like this little beauty: https://www.motor1.com/news/513354/2021-la...-startech/ Monsieur Le Grenadier I've not been everywhere, but it's on my list..... 2011 Puma 110DC - Corris Grey |
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13th Jun 2021 6:27am |
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| ResGuy68 Member Since: 15 May 2021 Location: Austin Posts: 26 
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There's a reason why people buy wranglers and 4runners for offroading and not glammed up land rovers.
The linked off-road test (below) is quite illustrative. Link; Body on frame, solid-axel (4runner rear), and mechanical differentials hold very real off-road benefits. Electronic alternatives and fancy marketing can attempt to overcome these advantages. However, there will still be differences (capability, reliability, customizability) I do wonder how the defender could have performed with a proper lift and tires. However, the cost of kitting out such a mod on the unibody design would likely be insanely expensive. By comparison, a decent 3 inch lift on a wrangler can be achieved with $1200 in parts and 5 hours of labor. |
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13th Jun 2021 11:13pm |
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