 | Home > INEOS Grenadier > Main Grenadier discussion thread |
 
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| ppad Member Since: 16 Nov 2012 Location: now, UK S Coast Posts: 223   
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If the target market was a low volume enthusiast (Defenderish) market, I wonder if Jim has just lost 20% or more of it anyway...
He was at Leeds Uni in the 70s when I was at Sheffield, both doing Chem Eng. We would have met at the p-ss ups. The same age, he was going to live down the road from me at Beaulieu and he was interested in a 1948 80” last year that came to me back from Cooper Pedy. We’ll have about the same life expectancy – maybe 10 years before we are gibbering idiots in a nursing home. And he ups and moves to Monaco. Just to avoid tax. OK he can jet commute at will, but HMRC will be swooping like a hawk if he moves back to the forest for more than a weekend. With just a few years to go why bother? But more to the point he is now not emotionally ‘one of us’, he is just another Branson living in a tax refuge after being educated and making all his dosh in his home country. He’s not a Landy nut, just very rich bloke making a toy car. Might as well buy a Suzuki …  Sold the much modified 110 2.8, in Oz
Brought the 90 home from Switzerland ... |
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29th Sep 2020 11:47am |
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| LandymanStefan Member Since: 30 Aug 2017 Location: Surrey Posts: 881  
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To be fair if I Suzuki made a jimny the size of a defender I would be keen
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29th Sep 2020 12:28pm |
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| Supacat Member Since: 16 Oct 2012 Location: West Yorkshire Posts: 11018 
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I wouldn't bet on him not having a small estate in Scotland, must be worth it for a few weekend shoots a year?
His interests are now truly international, I wouldn't be surprised if there's more coming in from outside the UK than the UK itself. There's also a shed load of UK registered businesses that will all be paying UK tax. |
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29th Sep 2020 6:38pm |
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| Tim in Scotland Member Since: 23 May 2007 Location: The Land that time forgot Posts: 3753 
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Ineos has a fleet of Shale Gas gas tankers that transport shale gas to the Ineos Chemical works at Grangemouth on the River Forth from the USA, they are all brand new and registered to companies in Malta and Denmark.
Not sure that he has land in Scotland, too much of it is owned by Germans, Danes and Norwegians trying to avoid high taxes in their own countries! Ineos is also starting to ship natural gas from Northern Canada all year round in specially ice strengthened / ice breaking gas carriers too. Pangea Green D250 90 HSE with Air Suspension, Off-road Pack, Towing Pack, Black Contrast roof , rear recovery eyes, Front bash plate, Classic flaps all round, extended wheel arch kit and a few bits from PowerfulUK Expel Clear Gloss PPF to come 2020 D240 1st Edition in Pangea Green with Acorn interior. Now gone - old faithful, no mechanical issues whatsoever ever but the leaks and rattles all over the place won’t be missed! |
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29th Sep 2020 6:49pm |
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| HK07 Member Since: 15 Dec 2016 Location: Hampshire Posts: 746 
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Sub 40k 2007 90 Puma - Love it - Best car I have ever owned. 1989 Ninety 200tdi - Love it - Second best car I have ever owned. 1951 80" Series 1 - Love it - Third best car I have ever owned. |
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1st Oct 2020 4:58pm |
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| Ads90 Member Since: 16 Jun 2008 Location: Cots-on-the-Wolds Posts: 812 
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Sub £40K +vat for commercial? Mid 40s for retail.
Wonder if that is for a base spec., SWB - if LWB might even undercut new Defender, although early days yet. |
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1st Oct 2020 6:06pm |
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| ChasingOurTrunks Member Since: 19 Aug 2020 Location: Canada Posts: 89 |
I just watched that video myself and it inspired me to do some basic napkin math (Edit: arithmetic on the back of a serviette for you UK folks...I'm not taking notes on diapers!) and google searching to figure out what the North American prices might be for these things by using similar vehicles -- the cost of a vehicle isn't always as simple as a currency conversion, so "apples to apples" as opposed to a straight exchange rate calculation I think gives a better sense of the global market price for these rigs.
A Jeep Rubicon in the UK "Starts at" $48k GBP. The same car in Canada starts at about $52k CAD or in the USA, their place of manufacture, it's $42.5k USD. Similarly, a G-Wagen in the UK starts at $96k GBP. Canada it's $148k CAD, and in the USA $127k USD; European made obviously. And finally, the Defender seems to start at about $45k GBP, but adding even modest off-road accessories (that the Rubicon has included) pushes it north of $50k GBP. In the USA, they start at $50k USD and in Canada, it's over of $65k CAD. (This illustrates the idea that it's more than a simple currency conversion well - if we did just a currency conversion, the new Defender at $50k in GBP would cost about $65k in USD). All told, the above suggests that if they are aiming for a mid-$40s GBP price tag, it should clock in at around $65k in Canada and could be as low as $50k in the USA. They will hopefully sell a lot of these at those price points. If the interior is comparable in terms of comfort features to the New Defender, the price might make the difference for a lot of folks (myself included). Last edited by ChasingOurTrunks on 1st Oct 2020 9:17pm. Edited 1 time in total |
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1st Oct 2020 6:16pm |
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| DSC-off Member Since: 16 Oct 2014 Location: North East Posts: 1426 
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Yes base spec starting price for the 5dr. The slightly longer crew cab isn't confirmed yet and the SWB is only a "maybe one day". |
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1st Oct 2020 8:09pm |
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| Supacat Member Since: 16 Oct 2012 Location: West Yorkshire Posts: 11018
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Just trying to reconcile "Something a little under £40,000" for commercial variants and for more retail versions "mid 40s".
Is the commercial variant the double cab pickup and so Inc VAT < £48,000.? For those that were subscribing to the "I suspect it’s price might make the New Defender look a bit of a bargain", it's not looking promising. |
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2nd Oct 2020 6:29am |
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| Philip Member Since: 09 Mar 2018 Location: England Posts: 510
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After having a look around one of the prototypes, whatever they cost a new Defender is a bargain by comparison. They’re very rudimentary underneath (not a chance it will approach the same levels of all-round ability with such archaic underpinnings), and I can’t imagine who will ever buy them as working vehicles given the premium.
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2nd Oct 2020 10:58am |
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| lohr500 Member Since: 14 Sep 2014 Location: Skipton Posts: 1317 
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If the underpinnings were half as complex as new Defender then I would be seriously concerned that the designers had not understood the brief given.
Isn't the whole point of it that it it has a simple and strong construction with the minimal amount of electronics to comply with global legislation? They aren't setting out to build a new Defender/D5/FFRR equivalent. The purchase price point will be very important, but so will the overall cost of ownership across the operating life of the vehicle. That's where I can see it being a more attractive proposition to the utility/emergency service/farming/enthusiast market. Simple design equals less to go wrong, easier and lower cost to maintain, quicker to repair, less dependency on specialist tools, etc, etc. It probably won't have the on road manners and comfort of new Defender, but with a well set up chassis and suspension, solid axles have been proven to work well on road. They certainly did for several generations of RR and Disco over the years. And if it is available with proper locking front and rear diffs, then my money says it should do as well or better off road than new Defender armed with at best a locking rear diff and a whole load of traction control electronics trying to stop the wheel spin. Just my own view and I wish them well with the project. |
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2nd Oct 2020 11:32am |
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| Philip Member Since: 09 Mar 2018 Location: England Posts: 510
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It’s a modern car with a modern (and very complicated) powertrain - it will be, and has to be, full of electronics. Not convinced there’s anything to suggest it will be some amazing off-roader, either - and in normal off-road use, good modern TC is a godsend (and I can’t imagine the Grenadier won’t have it, given it obviously has to have ABS).
I’m sort of glad it exists, but the Chinese rip-off looks are inexcusable and I can’t see many professional buyers making a business case for it (especially with zero dealer/parts/service network support). |
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2nd Oct 2020 11:41am |
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| Supacat Member Since: 16 Oct 2012 Location: West Yorkshire Posts: 11018
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Will it have 85 ECUs?
If you've not got analogue locking diffs.
Not sure how you can criticise Ineos for something that hasn't been announced yet? You also need to decide what it is: "very rudimentary" underneath, "with such archaic underpinnings" but "It’s a modern car with a modern (and very complicated) powertrain - it will be, and has to be, full of electronics". |
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2nd Oct 2020 11:48am |
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| Philip Member Since: 09 Mar 2018 Location: England Posts: 510
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It will be full of ECUs and electronics, even with the bare minimum to comply with legislation. Do you think BMW are giving them an engine with a carb and a distributor?
Not clear why “analogue” locking diffs are any kind of magic solution - it’s pretty obvious that electronic control of them is far more precise and effective, or it simply wouldn’t exist. If they’re planning a worldwide sales/service/parts network, I think we might have heard about it by now. I wish them well, but I suspect Ineos might be the biggest customer and an awful lot will end up “loaned” to agencies, charities etc. Edit - my comments about it being rudimentary were about the chassis and running gear, not the (unavoidable) complexity of the powertrain etc. |
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2nd Oct 2020 12:10pm |
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