 | Home > INEOS Grenadier > Main Grenadier discussion thread |
 
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| Philip Member Since: 09 Mar 2018 Location: England Posts: 510  
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What market is going to pay £40k+ for something that does the same job as a £20k D-Max?
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2nd Oct 2020 12:33pm |
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| Ads90 Member Since: 16 Jun 2008 Location: Cots-on-the-Wolds Posts: 812 
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Genuinely curious as to why do you say 'the (unavoidable) complexity of the powertrain' - in what way does it have to be more complex than say, the classic Defender? I appreciate the auto gearbox is complex, and maybe locking diffs are more complex than what has been standard before - but neither are anything ground-breaking.
Also although arguably preferable, I don't think ABS has to be fitted - there are some low volume manufacturers in the UK that don't fit it (e.g. Ariel). |
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2nd Oct 2020 12:36pm |
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| Supacat Member Since: 16 Oct 2012 Location: West Yorkshire Posts: 11018 
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So is that more or less than 85 then?
have you watched any of the videos of a new defender revving the engine, spinning wheels and clicking...compared to the way a G wagen on 3 actually locked diffs does it. I know my preference and it's not electronically mimicing what a limited slip diff does.
Why - they've addressed the issue by saying they are looking at various solutions, and if you have been following the story, you'd know this and not post that they aren't. |
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2nd Oct 2020 12:50pm |
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| Philip Member Since: 09 Mar 2018 Location: England Posts: 510
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The powertrain is bought in from BMW, they’re the current B57 diesel and B58 petrol engines, with a ZF 8 speed (just like the new Defender), and they’re both pretty much as complicated as modern engines get.
Ariel get away without ABS (and without complying with all the other modern legislation) because they’re built in tiny numbers and are type approved under the “small series” schemes - Ineos have said they need to build 20-25k Grenadiers a year, so not fitting ABS, DSC, brake assist, auto braking etc isn’t going to be an option. |
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2nd Oct 2020 12:54pm |
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| Philip Member Since: 09 Mar 2018 Location: England Posts: 510
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Irrelevant. Do you understand what is meant by an ECU? They’re in every electrical system of a modern car - lighting, windows, wipers, everything, and have been for years. The Grenadier is not going to have hand-operated wipers, or sliding windows.
Watched pretty much all of them. The centre and rear locking diffs on a new Defender don’t mimic anything - they limit slip or lock as they need to, in conjunction with the braked traction control (traction control like a new G Class has, except when you lock any of its diffs - including the centre one - when, bizarrely, all electronic assistance is turned off, including ABS). There still aren’t many videos around of the Defender with a rear locking diff as it seems the first series cars didn’t have them fitted. I assume your current Defender has the essential three locking diffs?
They cannot possibly put a worldwide dealer/parts/service solution in place (which is one of the reasons LR weren’t ever going to be able to compete with a rival to the Japanese pick-ups)- best you’ll get is tagging onto someone else’s outlets. |
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2nd Oct 2020 1:10pm |
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| Supacat Member Since: 16 Oct 2012 Location: West Yorkshire Posts: 11018
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Some interesting things in the recently published annual accounts:
"The Company is currently developing its first product, a rugged, reliable and uncompromising 4x4 off-road vehicle named the "Grenadier". This vehicle is aimed at the following key markets: Corporates, Utilitarians, Lifestylists and Enthusiasts." Choose which one represents you best! "The Company is focused on designing and engineering the vehicle, establishing suitable manufacturing facilities, building up its internal organisation and developing its commercial, manufacturing and supply chain strategies." "Following an extensive review of available sites and facilities, the company had previously decided on two green field sites, located in the UK and Portugal, on which to build its manufacturing facilities. As described under Subsequent Events below, the Company is currently investigating the potential acquisition of a going concern company that already owns and operates a suitable facility located in France. This facility would be capable of producing at least 25,000 Grenadier vehicles, in addition to the manufacture of another model that is already produced on site. Production of the Grenadier is targeted to start in late 2021." "As at the date of signing of the accounts, the Company is engaged in negotiations regarding the potential acquisition of a going concern automotive manufacturing company. If these negotiations reach a successful conclusion, then upon completion of the acquisition the Company will own an operational automotive manufacturing site and will immediately be engaged in the contract manufacture of vehicles for a thud party. Production of its own vehicle would be introduced alongside this contract manufacturing operation towards the end of 2021. The previously secured green field sites in the UK and Portugal remain potential manufacturing locations should the current negotiations not conclude with an acquisition." "The loss before taxation was €137,124,000 (2018: €50,996,000)."  Click image to enlarge Still cheaper than a Dyson... "The strategic aim of the company is to develop and build its uncompromising 4x4 off-road vehicle so as to meet all safety, environmental and legislative requirements whilst delivering flawless off-road performance. The vehicles are to be built in a world class manufacturing facility and sold via an industry disrupting omnichannel approach." "There appears to be a general recognition by governments that a move to zero emission vehicles is essential for meeting their climate and air quality goals. Some have set target dates for introducing legal bans on the sale of internal combustion engines within the next ten to twenty years. The Company is addressing this issue by exploring potential zero emission solutions for its off-road vehicle and it recently completed a successful Innovate UK.funded feasibility study into the potential use of Hydrogen Fuel Cell technology." "The impact of the Covid-19 pandemic is not yet fully understood and is therefore a source of significant economic uncertainty. To date the Company has been able to continue its development work at pace with a switch to home working, however we are starting to see some impact within our supply chain that in turn could impact on our supplier nomination decisions and the project timelines. The Company's economic resilience will be supported by a balanced distribution of sales across the UK, mainland Europe, North America and the rest of the world and the positioning of the vehicle as a workhorse / utility vehicle as opposed to a luxury vehicle that would be more sensitive to changes in economic conditions." Click image to enlarge "The Company had not commenced trade at the balance sheet date. When trade does commence, the Company'strading activities are expected to be within the UK automotive regime, with tax relief for qualifying pre-trading expenditure available at that time." Click image to enlarge Click image to enlarge |
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2nd Oct 2020 1:33pm |
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| Supacat Member Since: 16 Oct 2012 Location: West Yorkshire Posts: 11018
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Quite, which makes your first statement on the matter appear rather disingenuous:
Let's not get snobby about the business model for support - the current LR model is not one to hold up as a paragon. |
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2nd Oct 2020 1:45pm |
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| Philip Member Since: 09 Mar 2018 Location: England Posts: 510
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For a business/fleet buyer a lack of dealers/service outlets has to be a concern.
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2nd Oct 2020 1:53pm |
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| ickle Member Since: 22 Jul 2010 Location: South Vendee Posts: 1785  
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If this is being built as an update of the traditional Defender but with a modern powertrain - surely they will tag onto the BMW dealer network for engine and gearbox faults and as with the old Defender, the customer will be expected to fix all of the other faults with leaks, trim, axles failing etc?
Keith |
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2nd Oct 2020 2:48pm |
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| Bluest Member Since: 23 Apr 2016 Location: Lancashire Posts: 4216 
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I'm sure back at the start they said they'd be looking to working with machinery dealers, but that may have changed. It's possible that for fleet/professional users they might adopt a similar approach as with plant and ag machinery, where the technician comes to you in a van, rather than you take the vehicle to the technician at the dealer. The other approach is to look at some of the smaller business type car dealers, the type that might have a Subaru, Isuzu, MG or Mitsubishi franchise and see if they will take them on as an additional brand. 2007 110 TDCi Station Wagon XS
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2nd Oct 2020 3:18pm |
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| ChasingOurTrunks Member Since: 19 Aug 2020 Location: Canada Posts: 89 |
There are countless support models Ineos can use that will be cheap, sustainable, and make parts and service widely available worldwide (as is their goal), so I actually think this will align well with the needs of Commercial operators. Tesla has demonstrated a great deal of success with its boutique direct-to-consumer approach. BMW and Mercedes both have an existing international dealer and supply chain network, and either company could be partnered with on the Grenadier. One model I've been thinking of that Ineos could be considering would be the Kawasaki model of dealer support. I have never once seen a Kawasaki "Dealership" in the same way that I see JLR, GMC, Ford, Harley, etc. dealerships -- dedicated buildings that only sell one marque. They may be elsewhere in the world, but I've never seen one in North America.
What I have seen is "Crowsnest Motorsports" or "Bill's Garage" with Kawasaki signs slung out front, oftentimes almost in a temporary fashion. It's a cheap license to hold in addition to their main business, and those stores often will sell you a Stihl chainsaw or a Poulan weedeater right alongside a KLR-650. The advantage to this model is that every small town I've been to has a shop with the Kawasaki logo hanging off the side of it, and that tells me I can get parts for a KLR 650 anywhere, and the design of the KLR is simple enough that if you can fix a lawnmower, you can fix the bike. The Ineos appears to be trying to be to 4x4s what the KLR650 is to motorcycles -- robust, rugged, simple, and a jack of all trades. Not the fastest or most comfortable, but it does what it says on the box. If I'm a commercial operator, knowing that the Ineos flag is flown on mom-and-pop garages in countless small towns around the world is GREAT news and far more appealing than having to go to a "traditional" dealership, ask nicely if they can maybe do me a favour and fit me in this year, argue with them whether it's a warranty issue or not, and know full well that they don't really care that much about my commercial business because their bread and butter is passenger cars. The point is, after all this rambling, Ineos has some opportunities to really do a great job of capturing both the commercial customer and the enthusiast 4x4 market -- we just don't know which opportunity(ies) they will decide to go with, but their statement of "Multistream" suggests they are evaluating several models to meet their customer needs. As far as complexity, there is no doubt that the Grenadier will have some electronic complexity, but based on the initial information we have, it's not likely to be comparable most other modern cars on the road with a few exceptions (I'm guessing that the Wrangler JK is close to what Ineos is aiming for -- having owned one, they are very simple machines). There will be ECUs in the powertrain, of course. The complexity isn't the problem in and of itself -- it's how the vehicle is designed to fail that matters most, and how easy it is to get it back to working order. The systems it will likely need (Safety and Fuel/Engine management) have been around for decades and are extremely well tested to be reliable. If the system is designed to "fail well" and something goes wrong in the electronics, it's either a fuse, a sensor, or a solid-state chip; in a well-designed vehicle, all three of those issues will be easy to diagnose and get at to fix. Check the fuse. check the sensor voltage via an OBDII dongle ($20) and a cell phone. Then if those check out, look to replace the ECU itself (super rare on any vehicle) which should be about as challenging as changing a lightbulb, albeit a bit more expensive. A further important part of the complexity is how the vehicle reacts when there is a problem. In a modern car, the failure of a blind spot detection system is sometimes enough to trigger a "limp home" mode. In an acquaintance's vehicle, the headlight burned out, and that was enough to prevent the car from starting; it turned out to be a problem in the headlight control module so the only way to fix it was to replace the whole moulded plastic light & housing, which was well over a thousand bucks -- not the simple round bulb that you can get for $50 at any service station and toss in a spares box. With one of my older touring vehicles, there was an issue where the battery in the keyfob was a bit low, so the vehicle wouldn't start at all. There's an as-yet unanswered issue with the New Defender in that one video where one of its electronic brains decided to automatically release the brakes on one tester and sent him careening backwards down a steep muddy hill. On the newer Jeep JLs, there is an issue with a secondary battery keeping current in the system, and some folks short out their ECUs when doing work because they aren't at a zero-charge state. Contrast that to my 2013 Jeep -- about as simple as a modern car can get -- which used to eat oil pressure sensors for breakfast on an annual basis. The sensor controlled how much oil got to the engine, with a "high" and "low" mode. However, when it failed, it didn't stop the vehicle from working -- it just tossed out a trouble code and defaulted to the "high pressure" option, because more oil is far better than not enough, and it's perfectly fine to drive the vehicle like that for at least 9 months (Maybe longer -- that's how long it took me to get around to fixing it the first time!). This is a good, robust "Failure design" for what I understand was a necessary sensor for emissions. Is it complex? Sure it is. I couldn't fabricate a replacement sensor on my workbench, so I'd say that's a complex part. But it's a simple, robust design -- like ABS and fuel injection -- and this level of complexity should not cause the Grenadier owners too many headaches. And, once I spent a bit more for a better quality sensor than what OEM used, the regular failures went away entirely, so if Ineos uses good quality parts off the hop it should be fine. And the final point is repairability. This is where the Jeep could be better. Chrysler minivans used the same 3.6l Engine as my jeep, and in that application, the engine was mounted east-west in the engine bay, so the oil pressure sensor (a known weak spot on the 3.6L) was on the right-hand side and easy to get at by just removing the plastic shroud. In the JK, it was mounted north-south in the engine bay, so that meant you had to take off the top of the engine to get at the sensor which was tucked in down at the back near the firewall. I'll be interested to see how repairable the Grenadier is when we get a closer look in a few months time. |
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2nd Oct 2020 3:18pm |
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| Philip Member Since: 09 Mar 2018 Location: England Posts: 510
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The sales side is less of an issue, I’d say:
“Instead of a traditional dealership network, customers will be able to shop online and via a network of existing agricultural and tractor traders, ‘pop-up sites’ at county shows and agricultural and equestrian events, and at off-road experience centres where buyers can try out the vehicles for themselves”. Service/parts: “For repairs and servicing it is planning a ‘flying spanner’ service as well as a partnership with a major international chain of repair centres”. As for easy home fixes, I’m not sure the average bush mechanic will have much chance against a B57/B58 BMW engine. |
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2nd Oct 2020 3:27pm |
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| SteveT247 Member Since: 21 Feb 2011 Location: Central Posts: 491  
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It's nowhere near as effective. My Defender is twin locked, I'm yet to go out with a vehicle with T/C, and I'm including Discovery 3's, that has matched it on the technical stuff, let alone bested it. I'm yet to see a video from anyone, particularly Australian one's where a T/C vehicle (again I'm including terrain response) has bested a similar, or the same vehicle with locked diffs in crossing extreme terrain. Who know's, maybe the new defender will, but from everything I've seen so far, I won't be holding my breath. |
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2nd Oct 2020 3:49pm |
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| Philip Member Since: 09 Mar 2018 Location: England Posts: 510
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That very much depends on what “extreme terrain” you’re crossing - I’m sure there are plenty of occasions where lockers just get people much more stuck. Old-school manual locking diffs are a lot, lot cheaper for a manufacturer to put into something than electronically-controlled locking/limited slip ones...
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2nd Oct 2020 4:00pm |
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