 | Home > Off Topic > Red diesel on private land |
 
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| Pilgrimmick Member Since: 16 Nov 2015 Location: Highlands Posts: 582  
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That is surely illegal!
I cannot see any way they can interpret the law to allow it. |
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26th Dec 2015 11:26am |
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| Rickydodah Member Since: 14 Jul 2014 Location: East Sussex Posts: 1091 |
I'm unsure of the law now but provided the vehicle was for agricultural use then it could run on red diesel only if no VED was paid. By definition if any duty was paid in would define the vehicle as for road use and normal road fuel must be used. Provided that the vehicle conformed to C&U regulations and had identifying number plates it could be used for short distances on public roads between areas of land owned by the same person. This may explain how they got around the problem, but it would have been a lot of hassle for a business such as BMW  I started with nothing and still have most of it left! |
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26th Dec 2015 12:04pm |
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| Supacat Member Since: 16 Oct 2012 Location: West Yorkshire Posts: 11018 
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Was the OP told this rather than watched a vehicle being fuelled?
Wouldn't be the first time an employee at these type of places mis-spoke... |
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26th Dec 2015 2:30pm |
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| blackwolf Member Since: 03 Nov 2009 Location: South West England Posts: 17443 
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As Rickydodah notes, this is only possible if the vehicle is Ag registered. However even then it would only be legal if the vehicle is used for agricultural, forestry, or horticultural purposes, which clearly it isn't. If the vehicles were SORN'ed and never went onto land to which the RTAs apply, they could also run on red, but if used as described above the law if very definitely being broken!
Since "BMW know what they're doing", it is highly unlikely that they are doing this! |
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26th Dec 2015 6:15pm |
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| 107sw Member Since: 10 Mar 2015 Location: Yorkshire Posts: 63
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I too found it hard to believe & quite possible (probably?) I was misinformed.
I also thought it wouldn't be possible as red dye stains tank so surely could be a problem for future owners . (If HMRC should decide to check nice shiny BMW's !) Am I wrong on this also ?! Apologies, I am confusing rather than assisting this thread ! |
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5th Jan 2016 7:45pm |
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| Landumph Member Since: 07 Sep 2013 Location: Mendip Hills Posts: 28  
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Evening All
See below copy from Freight Transport Association 2014 yearbook of transport law Should give you definitive answer to using rebated fuel, my IT skills are a bit rubbish, you will need to scroll down to the bit on 'Permitted Uses of Rebated Fuel' Diesel fuel Diesel standard BSEN 590 Until 1 January 2000 diesel sold in the UK was required by the Motor Fuel (Composition and Contents) Regulations 1994 to comply with the standard BSEN 590. From 1 January 2000, the regulations were changed by the introduction of the Motor Fuel (Composition and Contents) Regulations 1999 which replaced the 1994 regulations. These implemented an EU directive relating to the environment and which only include part of BSEN590. In order to ensure fuel quality on exchange deals, the major oil companies still require diesel, on exchange, to fully meet BSEN590. Operators are recommended to include the requirement that fuel supplied to them fully meets BSEN590 as part of their contract with their fuel supplier. Ultra low sulphur diesel Ultra low sulphur diesel (ULSD) was defined within the 1998 Finance Act. This stated that ULSD must have a sulphur content of no more than 50ppm and a density not exceeding 830kg per cubic metre. With the exception of density the standard for ultra low sulphur diesel is exactly the same as that for diesel in BSEN590:2004. BSEN590 allows the density of diesel to lie between 820kg and 845kg per cubic metre. The Department for Transport published in early 2007 regulations setting out the time- table for introduction of sulphur-free fuels. Road diesel met this specification by 4 December 2007. The lubricity of diesel is critical to the rate of wear of the fuel injection components and all diesel sold in the UK meets the European standard of 460 microns. The method of measur- ing lubricity is such that the lower the figure quoted the better, as it is a measure of a wear scar created as part of the test. It is always preferable to purchase a diesel with as low a lubricity figure as possible; some ULSDs sold in the UK having a lubricity figure of below 300 microns. The change to ULSD created some problems with injection equipment where the ULSD has a different aromatic content from the diesel previously used. The continued use of either a high, medium or low aromatic diesel is unlikely to create leaks in fuel injection equipment. The problem occurs where a vehicle has been running on comparatively high aromatic diesel which has soaked into the injection equipment seals. This in itself is not a problem, but if the vehicle then runs on low aromatic diesel, the aromatics will leach out of the seals causing them to shrink, or even crack, and leak. It is, therefore, preferable when changing to ultra low sulphur diesel to use a fuel with a similar aromatic content to that used previously. The use of very low aromatic diesel in new vehicles will not cause a problem as the seals will not have had the opportunity to absorb any aromatics which could later leach out. Biodiesel Early experience with biofuel use indicated that unless the biofuel quality was controlled it could result in biodiesel or biodiesel blends which would be unsuitable for use in diesel engines due to poor oxidation stability, contaminants and cold flow performance. As a result of these concerns CEN experts developed the standard EN14214 suitable for use as a neat (B100) fuel or as a blend component for EN590. There have been a number of revisions to the EN14214 over the years and in its current form it is suitable for blending up to B7 (seven per cent) in EN590 diesel fuel. At the time of writing, a further revision of EN14214 is being drafted which will introduce additional stability and cold operability requirements to further enhance the biofuel quality for trouble-free operation in diesel engines. A mixture of up to seven per cent of biodiesel, if complying with the European standard BSEN14214, can be blended into petroleum diesel and used in all existing engines. This fully complies with the existing diesel standard BSEN590. The BSEN14214 standard was developed FTAYearbook of RoadTransport Law 2012 41 Diesel fuel with the full co-operation of vehicle, and vehicle component, manufacturers and specifies the only quality of biodiesel acceptable to them for vehicle warranty validation. If the biodiesel proportion is raised beyond seven per cent, engines may need to be modified and vehicle man- ufacturers should be consulted. The UK is committed (through the Renewable Transport Fuel Obligation) to a five per cent biofuels target by 2013-14 of all fuels sold. Fuel duty Current rates (as of 1 January 2011) of excise duty on diesel and petrol are detailed below. Type of fuel Duty rate (pence) Ultra-low sulphur petrol/diesel 60.97 per litre Sulphur-free petrol/diesel 60.97 per litre Biodiesel 60.97 per litre Biodiesel for (for non-road use) 11.72 per litre LPG (as road fuel) 37.34 per kg Natural gas (as road fuel) 29.07 per kg Rebated gas oil (red diesel) 11.72 per litre Bioethanol 60.97 per litre Fuel oil 11.26 per litre Introduction of sulphur-free gas oil from 1 January 2011 EU Directive 2009/30/EC introduces a requirement that, from 1 January 2011, all gas oil (red diesel) used in non-road mobile machinery (NRRM) must contain no more than 10 milligrams of sulphur per kilogram of fuel. NRMM includes tractors and other agricultural equipment, forestry equipment, construction equipment, forklifts, portable generators. In the case of gas oil for use in railway engines, the introduction of sulphur-free gas oil will be one year later on 1 January 2012. The maximum sulphur limit will be reduced from 1,000mg/kg (parts per million) to 10mg/kg (identical to road diesel). The reduced sulphur content of gas oil will enable use of catalytic emission control technologies which would otherwise be ‘poisoned’ by high fuel sulphur content. UK fuel suppliers have indicated that for logistics and cost reasons they will respond to the requirement for virtually sulphur-free gas oil by supplying road diesel marked with an excise marker. Rebated fuel The following sections provide details on the use of rebated fuel (‘red diesel’) in road going vehicles. With tax representing a significant amount of the purchase price of derv, the attrac- tions of using such fuel are obvious, but a rigorous enforcement regime with severe penalties for misuse, whether deliberate or unintentional, means that it is vitally important to under- stand the detailed application of the rules. Diesel which is used only in vehicles operated ‘off road’ or in plant and machinery attracts a far lower rate of excise duty than that which is used by vehicles on the road. To distinguish between rebated and tax paid fuel, rebated fuel contains chemical markers and also a dye. The colour of the dye has been changed to solvent yellow 124 as part of European harmonisation. The chemical markers can be detected by HM Revenue & Customs officers checking for the fraudulent use of such fuel, whilst the dye also leaves a stain on the engine and components. Different countries used to have different coloured dyes to identify rebated fuel.Permitted uses of rebated fuel The permitted vehicles are: − Unlicenced vehicles not used on public roads. Statutory Off Road Notification (SORN) must be made if applicable (see page 236) 42 FTAYearbook of RoadTransport Law 2012 − Tractors. This must be an agricultural tractor: − designed and constructed primarily for off-road use and − used solely for: i agriculture, horticulture or forestry purposes ii cutting verges bordering public roads or iii cutting hedges or trees bordering public roads or bordering verges which border public roads Note: the allowance for ‘off-road tractor’ to use rebated was withdrawn in May 2000. * HMRC and DVLA have issued a memorandom of agreement in respect of the use of agricultural vehicles on the road. Contact the Member Advice Centre (0870 60 50 000) for a copy − Light agricultural vehicles. These must: − have a revenue weight of not more than 1 tonne − be designed and constructed to only seat the driver − be designed and constructed primarily for off-road use and − be used solely for purposes relating to agriculture, horticulture or forestry (see * above) − Agricultural material handlers. These must: − be designed and constructed primarily for off-road use − designed to lift goods or burden and − used on public roads solely for: i agriculture, horticulture or forestry purposes (see * above) ii cutting verges bordering public roads or iii cutting hedges or trees bordering public roads or bordering verges which border public roads − Agricultural engines. These must: − be designed and constructed primarily for off-road use − be designed and used solely for agriculture, horticulture or forestry purposes (see * above) − be used on public roads only for proceeding to and from the place where used for the above purposes and − when so proceeding, not carry any load unless it is necessary for its propulsion or the operation built-in or permanently attached machinery − Agricultural processing vehicles. These must: − be used for the conveyance of built-in processing machinery − be used on public roads only for proceeding to and from the place where the process- ing machinery is used and − when so proceeding, not carry any load unless it is necessary for its propulsion or for the operation of the processing machinery − Vehicles used between different parts of land. These must: − be used solely for purposes relating to agriculture, horticulture or forestry (see * above) − be used on public roads only in passing between areas of land occupied by the same person − not travel more than 1.5km on public roads in this way − have a ‘nil’ VED licence in force − Mowing machines − Snow clearing machines. These must be being used or going to or from a place of use for the purpose of clearing snow from public roads by means of a snow plough or similar device (whether or not forming part of the vehicle) − Gritters. These must be constructed or adapted, and used, solely for the conveyance of machinery for spreading material on roads to deal with frost, ice or snow (with or with- out articles or material used for the purpose of the machinery) Diesel fuel FTAYearbook of RoadTransport Law 2012 43 Diesel fuel 44 − Mobile cranes. These must: − be designed and constructed as a mobile crane. In 2000 a high court ruling (Nationwide Access Ltd & PTP Aerial Platforms Ltd vs HMC&E) found that ‘a crane is a machine that lifts objects and moves them to a radius’ regardless of the method of technology used to achieve this. The argument centred on the mechanical process that a Bronto Skylift and a Simon Galaxy used – effectively telescopic booms, rather than a rope and pulley system. Although this ruling broadened the definition of a mobile crane, the other conditions below must also be met − be used on public roads only as a crane in connection with work carried on at a site in the immediate vicinity or for proceeding to and from the place of such use − when so proceeding, not carry any load unless it is necessary for its propulsion or the operation of built-in lifting apparatus (this excludes lorry mounted loader cranes) and − have a revenue weight exceeding 3.5 tonnes − Mobile pumping vehicles. These must: − be constructed or adapted for use, and used, for the conveyance of a pump and jib, which is: i built in as part of the vehicle and ii designed so that material pumped is delivered to a desired height or depth through piping that is attached to the jib and is raised or lowered to that depth by operation of the jib − be used on public roads only: i when the vehicle is stationary and the pump is being used to pump material from a point in the immediate vicinity to another such point or ii for proceeding to or from a place of such use and − when so proceeding, not carry: i the material that is to be or has been pumped or ii any other load unless it is necessary for the propulsion or equipment of the vehi- cle or for the operation of the pump − Digging machines. These must: − be designed, constructed and used for the purpose of trench digging, or any kind of excavating or shovelling work − be used on public roads only for the above purpose or for proceeding to or from that place of use and − when so proceeding, not carry any load unless it is necessary for its propulsion or equipment − Works trucks. These must: − be designed for use in private premises (this rules out most ex-road-going vehicles) and − be used on public roads only: i for carrying goods between private premises and a vehicle on a road within 1km of the premises ii in passing from one part of private premises to another iii in passing between one private premises and another where they are no more than 1km apart iv in connection with road works at the site of works or within 1km of the works − Road rollers − Road surfacing vehicles. These must: − be designed and constructed to perform an operation necessary to construct or restore the surface of a road − not carry any load on a public road unless it is necessary for its propulsion or for the operation of any built-in or permanently attached machinery and − have a maximum speed not exceeding 20kph FTAYearbook of RoadTransport Law 2012 − examining of any vehicle and its fuel Diesel fuel − Tar sprayers. These must be constructed or permanently adapted, and used, solely for spraying tar on to the road or for proceeding to and from the place of that use For all these categories ‘public road’ means a road which is repairable at the public expense. If a vehicle is used on public roads partly for one of the purposes specified and partly for other purposes, it may not use rebated fuel even when used for the permitted operation. Ancillary equipment Vehicles that are powered by rebated fuel are also allowed to use rebated fuel to run any ancillary equipment that is carried on the vehicle. Rebated fuel can also be used to power ancillary equipment on a vehicle which is fuelled by derv so long as the machinery that the rebated fuel is powering and the tank containing the rebated fuel are solely and permanently connected to each other and entirely separate from the vehicle’s fuel supply and engine. Any other tanks on a vehicle or trailer are deemed to be part of the vehicle’s fuel system and therefore must only contain fully duty paid derv. If the ancil- lary equipment is powered from the vehicle’s fuel supply or engine then the vehicle must use derv for both powering the equipment and for propulsion. Supply and storage of rebated fuel In addition to the regulations covering the storage and supply of fuels in general, there are fur- ther constraints governing the supply and storage of rebated fuels. If a business sells or deals in rebated (dyed) diesel and/or kerosene (other than in small pre-packaged containers not exceeding 20 litres), it needs to be approved by HM Revenue & Customs. The scheme was introduced to crack down on people who use rebated fuels illegally in road vehicles. It means that when a business sells or deals in rebated fuels, it must keep records of its customers to assist HM Revenue & Customs ensure they are buying and using the fuel legally. HM Revenue & Customs has issued a guidance booklet covering the ‘Registered Dealers in Controlled Oil Scheme’. It has been published as Public Notice 192 and may be obtained via www.hmce.gov.uk/business/othertaxes/roadfuels.htm or from the National Advice Service on 0845 010 9000. Additional guidance for plant hire businesses has also been published as information note RDCO X/03. Extracts from this note state: The Registered Dealers in Controlled Oil Scheme (RDCO) requires that with the excep- tion of those businesses receiving and selling controlled oil in closed pre-packaged containers not exceeding 20 litres, and certain sales made by end-users, anyone dealing in controlled oil must be approved and registered to do so by Revenue & Customs. These rules apply equally to secondary distributors, which may include those whose main business activity is not necessar- ily that of oil distribution, such as plant hirers. Approval and registration for the scheme does not apply to end-users of controlled oil. Hire of plant containing controlled oil with an operator If you only ever hire out plant contain- ing controlled oil with your own operator you will not need to apply for approval to be an RDCO. Hire of plant without an operator If you hire out plant containing oil but without an opera- tor you are not the end-user of the oil. The end-user is the person to whom you are hiring the plant. As such, you are a supplier of controlled oil and will need to apply to register for the scheme. Without an RDCO approval you will not be able to obtain oil from your supplier. Enforcement The use of rebated fuel is policed by HM Revenue & Customs officers. Officers have wide- ranging powers in connection with rebated fuel including: FTAYearbook of RoadTransport Law 2012 45 Diesel fuel − entering and inspecting any premises (except private houses) to inspect, test and sample any fuel on the premises and − requiring anyone concerned with the sale, purchase or disposal of rebated fuel to produce any relevant books or documents In carrying out these duties Customs has far greater powers than the police – search warrants, for example, are not required by Customs officers. Penalties Penalties for the unauthorised use of rebated fuels are severe. Vehicles found to be illegally using rebated fuels may be seized and only restored to their owner on payment of a ‘restora- tion amount’. This will consist of a penalty for the offences committed (a £250 fine may be imposed for each offence) along with an assessment of the duty rebate. In the case of a particularly serious offence, the vehicle may be forfeited. The offending operator may also face unlimited fines and a jail sentence of up to two years. Appeals In general, if an operator believes that Customs has acted incorrectly, they must write to their local Customs office within 45 days of the original written decision by Customs being made, requesting a departmental review. Where an operator wishes to appeal against the impounding of a vehicle or goods they should write to their local Customs office within one month of the date of seizure, after which Customs will begin proceedings in the courts to determine the matter. Repayment of rebate It is possible for operators to repay the rebate on dyed diesel and use it legally as road fuel. This can only be done after written permission has been obtained from Customs. To apply for such permission, operators must write to their local Excise and Inland Customs Advice Centre explaining: − why they cannot use tax paid diesel − why they need to use rebated fuel − what sort of rebated fuel will be used − how much it is intended to use each year and − whether any dyed diesel will be used for purposes other than road use without repayment of the rebate If an operator is authorised to use dyed diesel in this way, Customs will send form H070. Before dyed diesel is used on the road, the H072 must be completed and returned to Customs together with the payment of the rebate. 46 FTAYearbook of RoadTransport Law 2012 |
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11th Jan 2016 8:48pm |
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| Sicastle71 Member Since: 21 Aug 2019 Location: West Lancs Posts: 128 
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So I am ok using red diesel to power the diesel heater in the landie as long as it has its own tank then
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24th Jun 2020 5:45pm |
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| Pilgrimmick Member Since: 16 Nov 2015 Location: Highlands Posts: 582
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Yes 80" 1948
Lightweight V8 Bowler Tomcat 130 Station wagon 90 300tdi (Santana PS10 pick up) Range Rover L322 (Ful fat) |
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24th Jun 2020 5:55pm |
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| blackwolf Member Since: 03 Nov 2009 Location: South West England Posts: 17443
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Yes, as long as it is an entirely separate tank with no connection to the engine supply.
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24th Jun 2020 5:58pm |
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| Swine&Small Member Since: 20 Mar 2017 Location: Norfolk Posts: 1223
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I have been using red diesel in my lawn mower for years and thought nothing of it.
It is not registered in any way and just cuts my grass and never leaves my property. A local farmer supplies me. I assume that the boys in blue are not about to call ? 1983 Series 3 Pick up in Marine Blue 1967 Morris Traveller 1966 Morris Convertible 2012 VW T5 Camper Quod Abundat Non Obstat. |
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24th Jun 2020 6:00pm |
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| blackwolf Member Since: 03 Nov 2009 Location: South West England Posts: 17443
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It would only be a problem if your mower was road legal.
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24th Jun 2020 6:43pm |
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| Swine&Small Member Since: 20 Mar 2017 Location: Norfolk Posts: 1223
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Thanks Blackwolf.. I shall continue mowing with contentment
 1983 Series 3 Pick up in Marine Blue
1967 Morris Traveller 1966 Morris Convertible 2012 VW T5 Camper Quod Abundat Non Obstat. |
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24th Jun 2020 7:43pm |
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| Supacat Member Since: 16 Oct 2012 Location: West Yorkshire Posts: 11018
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Serious question ~ what about if it had a shared coolant supply? |
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25th Jun 2020 10:35am |
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| blackwolf Member Since: 03 Nov 2009 Location: South West England Posts: 17443
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I don't see that that would be a problem, what I would consider essential is that even the most stubborn and stupid roadside inspector could see without doubt that there was absolutely no way to run the vehicle's engine off the red diesel tank.
I am not aware of any reason why you couldn't preheat the vehicle's engine with red, as long as you cannot run the vehicle's engine on red. This is my inexpert but hopefully sensible opinion, don't rely on it in court! "Blackwolf said so..." is not a legal defence, unfortunately! |
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25th Jun 2020 11:26am |
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