 | Home > General & Technical (L663) > 2020 Defender main discussion thread |
 
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| Naks Member Since: 27 Jan 2009 Location: Stellenbosch, ZA Posts: 2638   
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^
the requirements have changed: it's 2020, not 1948.  --
2010 Defender Puma 90 + BAS remap + Alive IC + Slickshift + Ashcroft ATB rear 2015 Range Rover Sport V8 Supercharged 
Defender Puma Workshop Manual: https://bit.ly/2zZ1en9 Discovery 4 Workshop Manual: https://bit.ly/2zXrtKO Range Rover/Sport L320/L322/L494 Workshop Manual: https://bit.ly/2zc58JQ |
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27th Mar 2020 8:16am |
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| Naks Member Since: 27 Jan 2009 Location: Stellenbosch, ZA Posts: 2638
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selling 20K vehicles p.a is not a sound business practice (it never was), unless you can offset that by selling millions of other models, or you can charge mega-premium ala Porsche, Ferrari, etc.
Toyota can do it: the LFA was a money pit, but hey, they sell Corollas in multi-millions, so not an issue for them. speaking for myself, everytime I get into my Defender, I know that I stand a fairly high chance of not surviving even a short trip to the shops. I get into my RRS and I know that I will survice almost anything bar a drone strike. my wife nearly died in 2015 when she rolled her 90 while trying to avoid a dog crossing the road. she only survived because she's so short and the roof collapsing didn't hit her head. if only for the safety factor, the new one most definitely fits my requirements. Having said that, you & I both know that I will never get rid of my Puma, mostly for *emotional* reasons - I've had it for 10 years and it's great as a trail/overlanding vehicle. You've seen my videos of trails, etc. Although I'm starting to re-think its applicability to overlanding, as my RRS could the same in much more comfort & safety. -- 2010 Defender Puma 90 + BAS remap + Alive IC + Slickshift + Ashcroft ATB rear 2015 Range Rover Sport V8 Supercharged
Defender Puma Workshop Manual: https://bit.ly/2zZ1en9 Discovery 4 Workshop Manual: https://bit.ly/2zXrtKO Range Rover/Sport L320/L322/L494 Workshop Manual: https://bit.ly/2zc58JQ |
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27th Mar 2020 8:48am |
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| Supacat Member Since: 16 Oct 2012 Location: West Yorkshire Posts: 11018  
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"selling 20K vehicles p.a is not a sound business practice (it never was)" - I guess that's were you and I disagree...and so does JLR when you look at it's sales of XE, XF, XJ, I-Pace and F type; and there's plenty more motor manufacturers in the 20k vehicles per annum who stay in business year after year.
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27th Mar 2020 9:14am |
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| Naks Member Since: 27 Jan 2009 Location: Stellenbosch, ZA Posts: 2638
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well, if never making a profit on a vehicle is a sound business practice, then yes. Jaguar is struggling majorly due to its low volume sales, so not a good example.
Other manufacturers can do small-run production on some models for two reasons (as I have pointed out in my previous post): they sell other models in the millions, or they can charge a mega-premium. Sure, they could make the old Defender and charge 100,000 pounds for one, like Porsche does, but who's going to buy them?  --
2010 Defender Puma 90 + BAS remap + Alive IC + Slickshift + Ashcroft ATB rear 2015 Range Rover Sport V8 Supercharged
Defender Puma Workshop Manual: https://bit.ly/2zZ1en9 Discovery 4 Workshop Manual: https://bit.ly/2zXrtKO Range Rover/Sport L320/L322/L494 Workshop Manual: https://bit.ly/2zc58JQ |
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27th Mar 2020 9:27am |
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| Grenadier Member Since: 23 Jul 2014 Location: The foot of Mont Blanc... Posts: 5804  
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The thing is Naks, JLR were perfectly capable of giving us a new and improved Puma. Or version of. The 'New' Defender is so far removed from even a 2016 Puma that it's not evolution but revolution. And the question is, who's going to buy it? Military, no. Overlander, no. Utility company, no. NGO, no. Farmer, no. Dakar race team, no. Someone private who wants a (relatively) robust 4x4, no. Someone looking for a character vehicle, no. Etc etc etc. I'm not saying the list above would only buy a Defender, we know as many would be a Hilux or other Japanese equivalent. But this was the Defender target market.
But will they buy the new one? No, because it's too complicated/urban/expensive, for the traditional user of the old Defender. Almost universally so. So who's it aimed at? Who's going to buy it? The same people who buy a Ferrari but will never (get to) use it as it has been designed. Apparently the average speed of the world's Ferraris is something like 23mph because they're all stuck in towns. Despite they're race pedigrees. The same will go for the new Defender. The average new Defenders 'off roading' will be driving on grass at the local football pitch parkimg up before a hipster food festival, despite its pedigree and despite its clear abilities. I cannot see anyone beyond the sort of person who might have otherwise considered a RR/RRS/RRV buying one. It'll be bought by young, wealthy Instagram urbanites, and perhaps owners of prestige shooting estates, ski chalets, yachts etc. And perhaps it'll be bought by some owners of Discos and RRs who have a pretence to being Bear Grylls. None of the above has ever been the true Defender target market, and what's irritating (to me, and perhaps other Defender obsessivels), is that JLR has more than enough perfectly capable comfortable/luxury 4x4s to have kept that buyer (who I accept is their primary buyer) happy. They didn't need to 'SUV' the Defender and make it a luxury vehicle. They could have kept it niche. So yes, it's no longer 1948, but all those groups that I mentioned above still want something that is 1948 in its abilities, usability, affordability, adaptability yet (factoring in inflation and safety regs), at 2020 prices and safety. That was the Defender user market. This isn't that. That user market has been ignored. Monsieur Le Grenadier I've not been everywhere, but it's on my list..... 2011 Puma 110DC - Corris Grey |
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27th Mar 2020 9:38am |
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| Ads90 Member Since: 16 Jun 2008 Location: Cots-on-the-Wolds Posts: 809 
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I think the New Defender is now the most desirable in the LR line-up, and will sell well (if they get past C19), and will suit the majority of potential buyers needs (both practical & imaginary).
Yes it's more Disco than Defender, and the exterior design isn't great, but I would be tempted by one when 2nd hand prices are within my range. I would never have a D5 as too ugly, posh. The market for 'adaptable' vehicles must be tiny compared to the market for this. They Dakar the new Mini, so surely they can Dakar this in the same way. The argument for brand credibility could be fulfilled by this if it is as good as it appears to be off-road. Personally I hope they add a more-affordable, original Freelander-lifestyle type (with removable roof option please) to bring something fun & funky to the range. Circa £25K to £35K. I think that could sell in good numbers. Rumours of a Small Defender are out there... |
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27th Mar 2020 10:19am |
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| Naks Member Since: 27 Jan 2009 Location: Stellenbosch, ZA Posts: 2638
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@Supacat @Grenadier I heard you, but a (mildly) improved Puma was never going to be profitable, because no one except die-hard Defender owners would have bought one.
And here's the catch-22: Defender owners don't need to buy a new one, because they already have one which will last (almost) forever, hence why the low sales volume and non-profitability. So you can't blame JLR for ignoring that segment of the market, because it almost never profited from it. Also, the new Defender is so far removed from the previous one because the previous one was never upgraded during its lifetime. Sure, new engines due to to emissions regulations, but otherwise mostly unchanged. Had it been revised/upgraded every 4-5 years as other models, it would likely have resulted in the new one after the nth iteration. Of course, this was never aimed at the Military, Farmer, Utility, etc., market, but you will be surprised are how many ZAs are planning to buy it to overland - precisely because it is more able, more comfortable, and *safer*. You Brits have a great saying - "it's no use crying over spilled milk", time to practice what you preach?  --
2010 Defender Puma 90 + BAS remap + Alive IC + Slickshift + Ashcroft ATB rear 2015 Range Rover Sport V8 Supercharged
Defender Puma Workshop Manual: https://bit.ly/2zZ1en9 Discovery 4 Workshop Manual: https://bit.ly/2zXrtKO Range Rover/Sport L320/L322/L494 Workshop Manual: https://bit.ly/2zc58JQ |
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27th Mar 2020 10:34am |
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| Grenadier Member Since: 23 Jul 2014 Location: The foot of Mont Blanc... Posts: 5804
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Naks, I'll be crying every time I see one....
 Monsieur Le Grenadier
I've not been everywhere, but it's on my list..... 2011 Puma 110DC - Corris Grey |
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27th Mar 2020 1:44pm |
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| Lee S Member Since: 06 Sep 2009 Location: Solihull Posts: 43 
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I think we are all worrying too much. Set aside the concerns about how the new “Defender” fits with the heritage of the brand i.e. Series, 90, 110, 130, Defender. Land Rover heritage is quite simple - to build The Best 4x4xFar. And they really have....
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27th Mar 2020 3:45pm |
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| blackwolf Member Since: 03 Nov 2009 Location: South West England Posts: 17372 
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I come from a generation when Land-Rover's mantra was to build "The World's Most Versatile Vehicle", something that they no longer do.
I don't want an over-complicated, over-priced, plastic SUV, however 'capable' it is. |
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27th Mar 2020 5:16pm |
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| Zed Member Since: 07 Oct 2017 Location: In the woods Posts: 3286 
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'Best SUV by far' perhaps but according to Autocar:
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-review/land-...020-review WARNING. This post may contain sarcasm. |
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27th Mar 2020 5:24pm |
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| diduan Member Since: 13 Oct 2016 Location: Central Balkan Posts: 260 
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I don't know how auto magazines test it, but if I was given one to take it for a weekend hunting trip I will destroy it in 30 minutes.
 Defender 110 SW MY2011 2.4tdci decat, no EGR
Jeep Wrangler YJ 1990 4.0. Front 78' Dana 60, Rear CUCV 14 bolt |
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27th Mar 2020 5:38pm |
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| Supacat Member Since: 16 Oct 2012 Location: West Yorkshire Posts: 11018
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Can you point me in the direction of your evidence that JRL never made a profit on any of the models I quoted above, otherwise it's just a circular argument. Let's see what happens with Grenadier ~ I believe their business case is based on a similar volume to the old Defender. And let's not forget that JLR's huge warranty costs and over inflated marketing budget is quite a millstone for all model lines to carry. The gravy train for senior management is only ever funded by us owners... |
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27th Mar 2020 6:01pm |
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| Tim in Scotland Member Since: 23 May 2007 Location: The Land that time forgot Posts: 3753 
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Another test but in the UK with some road driving as well as off road. Also mentions several more clever electronic aids I haven’t heard of before, but it could the be presenter not knowing his stuff!
Pangea Green D250 90 HSE with Air Suspension, Off-road Pack, Towing Pack, Black Contrast roof , rear recovery eyes, Front bash plate, Classic flaps all round, extended wheel arch kit and a few bits from PowerfulUK Expel Clear Gloss PPF to come 2020 D240 1st Edition in Pangea Green with Acorn interior. Now gone - old faithful, no mechanical issues whatsoever ever but the leaks and rattles all over the place won’t be missed! Last edited by Tim in Scotland on 28th Mar 2020 8:19am. Edited 1 time in total |
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27th Mar 2020 8:18pm |
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