 | Home > Off Topic > Car blocking a road/removing a car blocking a road |
 
|
|
|
| blackwolf Member Since: 03 Nov 2009 Location: South West England Posts: 17382   
|
Some of the interesting (and to me, unexpected) comments on this thread have encouraged me to do a little online digging to find out more. In particular, the issue of vehicles left without authority on private land. I have not yet tracked down any promary legislation which relates (there is far too much legislation to read in the time available!), however I did stumble across a website "Ask the Police" whcih I had never previously come across, and found in particular this, which may be of interest.
(Taken from https://www.askthe.police.uk/content/Q441.htm) Question: Q441: Someone has left a car on my land, what should I do? Answer: It is an offence to immobilise, move or restrict the movement of a motor vehicle in a way which would prevent a person (who is entitled to remove that vehicle) from removing the vehicle concerned. Therefore if a vehicle has been left on private land, an offence may be committed if, for example, the owner of that land clamped or towed away that vehicle. To be guilty of the offence however, a person must undertake these actions with the 'intention' of preventing or inhibiting a person entitled to move the vehicle concerned from moving the vehicle. Consequently, a person who moves an obstructively parked vehicle a short distance intending to regain access to his or her property would not be committing the offence in circumstances where he or she did not intend to prevent the driver of the vehicle from subsequently retrieving it. The offence also does not apply where a person is acting with lawful authority when immobilising, moving or restricting the movement of a vehicle. Those who have lawful authority and in fact a duty to remove vehicles from roads or other land include the police, local authorities, traffic wardens, parking attendants and civil enforcement officers. To avoid committing an offence where a vehicle has been left on private land, would require the vehicle to be removed by a person/s acting with lawful authority, or by moving/removing it with every care taken to show that there is no intention of depriving the driver of the vehicle from subsequently retrieving it. In the first instance, policies may vary from region to region as to who undertakes such a role in relation to private land but it is advisable to contact your local police or local authority to check who will take responsibility for its removal. The duty to remove a vehicle arises where it appears to them that the vehicle has been abandoned without lawful authority. If the vehicle looks stolen (e.g. it has damage to the locks) then contact the police who will make further enquiries. If you decide to move the vehicle yourself, or make arrangements for this to be done, it would be advisable to give the owner of the vehicle a reasonable amount of time (say, 14 days) to remove it. One suggestion is to put a notice on the car stating that if the car is still there after in 14 days you will have it moved/removed. It is advisable to also state on the notice the reason why the vehicle will be removed (i.e. it is obstructing the lawful use of private land) and where you intend to move the vehicle to. If there are number plates on the vehicle, send a recorded delivery letter to the registered keeper giving the same information (and keep the proof of postage and a copy of the letter). A Form V888 from the DVLA will get you registered details so long as your request is considered legitimate. Once you have given reasonable notice that the car will be towed away and the reasons for it being towed away and its intended destination, then it is likely that you will have avoided liability under the aforementioned offence. In effect you will have shown that there was no intention of preventing or inhibiting the driver of the vehicle from retrieving their vehicle. Clearly the answer above is complex, there are several issues which it raises, and it is written in the genrally sloppy and imprecise manner which has sadly become acceptable. The most important statement to me seems to be "Consequently, a person who moves an obstructively parked vehicle a short distance intending to regain access to his or her property would not be committing the offence in circumstances where he or she did not intend to prevent the driver of the vehicle from subsequently retrieving it", however it is pertinent to note firstly that this relates to vehicle left on private land not the public highway and secondly that this relates to offences arising from the intention to cause permanent deprivation etc. It does not absolve you from motoring offences such as driving without insurance, other parking offences, etc., or from offences realting to criminal damage etc. I suspect that if you were to move a car left on your property carefully, and a short distance, and it remained on your property, you will be OK. If you remove it from your property onto a highway or someone elses property, or if you drive it in a place to which the RTAs apply, or on public land etc, then I suspect that you are up the creek. I haven't yet found any evidence to support the assertion that a member of the public can similarly move a vehicle which is obstructiing a highway, but there a plentiful statements (from Police and Local Authority sources) to the effect the "only the Police can deal with a vehicle obstructing a highway". Personally, I would not consider for one moment moving such a vehicle myself, since I still believe that you will be committing a variety of significant offences (and will quite likely be assaulted by the owner). You are undoubtedly allowed to remove non-vehicular obstructions (such as trees and branches) sufficient to proceed, but you are not allowed to remove any material from the site, nor are you allowed to set out with the intention of removing such obstructions (which also means that you are not allowed to take tools without specifically for the purpose - it is of course OK to use tools you customarily carry provided that you don't carry them for this purpose). The general principle seems to be that if parking restrictions are in force or where dropped kerbs are obstructed, the Local Authority is repsonsible. Where there are no parking restrictions, or where general obstructions of the highway are concerned, the Police are responsible. If anyone on the forum knows more, and perhaps is a LA officer or a Police Officer and can shed further light, please feel free. In particular I would like to know more about the reasoning behind the suggestion that it is OK for a person to move, without the owner's permission, a vehicle obstructing the highway (as has been mentioned earlier in the thread). In what circumstances can this possibly be legal? For the time being I stand by my earlier statement albeit somewhat qualified to the effect that I feel that a normal member of the motoring public who uindertook to move a vehicle which is causing an obstruction and did so without the owner's consent is acting in a very foolhardy way, and is likely to regret doing so. |
||
4th Jan 2016 2:48pm |
|
| Orangesofa Member Since: 10 Oct 2014 Location: Somerset Posts: 214 
|
Blackwolf - it is a bit of a catch 22 as let's say a person parks their car on your drive, locks it and leaves. It is still there a day or so later and you want it gone. If you ring the police they will say it is a civil matter as they have no jurisdiction on private property yet if you smash the window of said vehicle, you are committing criminal damage - an offence the police can deal with on private property.
The police are not deciders of the law, they merely execute their interpretation of the laws and present the case for prosecution which one always has the right to challenge in the courts. It is for the magistrate or judge to decide based on case law and precedents. If we go back to the scenario of some herbert abandoning their car on your drive, if after say 48 hours and a call to the police (who do nothing), you decide to break the window to release the handbrake and push it back onto the road where you leave it secure (remove some essential component to disable it), cover the broken window and leave a note on the windscreen explaining where to find you/the component - I cannot see any court in the land that would see you had acted unreasonably. I was in the police for 6 years and had a similar experience pre-police where some (non-resident) dimwit parked their car on the private driveway of my block of flats but in doing so blocked in two cars. This was seen as 'free parking' near a local pub and we can only assume the driver had a few too many and didn't return to collect it for a couple of days. Needless to say, this upset a few of the local residents who did precisely what I mentioned above to liberate their cars and there was no come back from the driver concerned who was effectively asked "what did he expect?" I am not sure there is a simple answer to this but if one acts reasonably (man on the clapham bus scenario) you should be okay so long as you trust the judicial system.....  Phil |
||
|
4th Jan 2016 3:35pm |
|
| mse Member Since: 06 Apr 2008 Location: UK Posts: 5035 
|
and to add, do not cause any damage too - so photograph and evidence everything
The local authority can remove obstructions on the highway under a number of bits of legislation Like i say - i wouldnt do it unless i was doing it for work Mike |
||
|
4th Jan 2016 3:47pm |
|
| mk1collector Member Since: 17 Sep 2009 Location: West Yorkshire Posts: 6769  
|
If a vehicle was blocking the highway I'd just go a different way but if some had parked on my drive or blocked it I would just drag the vehicle to the side of the closest road (so as not to block the road) and if the vehicles owner wanted to make something of it they could try and prove I moved it
 Ray
My build thread http://www.defender2.net/forum/topic17615.html |
||
|
4th Jan 2016 4:11pm |
|
| barbel jim Member Since: 12 Dec 2012 Location: Northants Posts: 1423 
|
Theres some interesting points .........
However, being in this position just 4 weeks ago, Police advice aligns with Blackwolf ! Arriving on site on a Tuesday morning at 7am, some kind soul had parked there chaved up Focus across the gates, off the highway on private land. I had 2 lorries waiting to tip, scaffolders, brickies and ground workers all more than willing to help move the offending vehicle, but Police advise was quiet clear - DO NOT MOVE IT ! we will dispatch an officer who will be with you within an hour. Despite explaining the situation, cost involved etc it was the best they could do !! Anyway 50 minutes later some lout jumped in it and roared off! The police also didnt arrive within the hour, it was more like 2 and a half! Its not the first time its happened, nor will it be the last, but Police advice has always been the same. If there is a legal way of responsibly moving an offending vehicle I'd be grateful to know as boy wonders oversleep parking stunt cost me a couple of grand and alot of earache with the happy contractors  |
||
|
4th Jan 2016 9:42pm |
|
| Cupboard Member Since: 21 Mar 2014 Location: Suffolk Posts: 2971 
|
On the original topic: I do need to check with the definitive map, but before they started parking there it was definitely road and definitely fully laid and part of the rest of the network. It's also shown on the OS map which I know isn't definitive. It's perfectly possible to drive round, it's just there's a sensibly laid out junction there that you can't use. Since they've been parking there it has been becoming gradually more gravel-like.
Thanks for all the input 
And now please, as you were, this thread is becoming more interesting wherever it's going! |
||
|
4th Jan 2016 10:02pm |
|
| Orangesofa Member Since: 10 Oct 2014 Location: Somerset Posts: 214
|
Still stand by my comments. If I had sums of money at stake I would not hesitate to move the offending vehicle and have my day in court if needs be.
The one to watch out for it the common law allowing a copper to arrest anyone to avoid a breach of the peace. If you are about to move said rogue vehicle and the police have reasonable grounds to think this will result in fisticuffs with the lout when he returns - they could arrest you. This applies on private property too and does not require any warrant. If you are a screaming lunatic ramming the offending vehicle with your flashy new HD bumper then expect to be arrested and for the courts to take a dim view. If you and a few manly helpers 'bumped the suspension' to move the vehicle out of the way, I cannot see anyone having a problem except perhaps the lout... The subjective interpretation of 'reasonable' is the key. If you behave in a reasonable way and show that you have taken due care - the law should be on your side. Phil |
||
|
4th Jan 2016 10:43pm |
|
| blackwolf Member Since: 03 Nov 2009 Location: South West England Posts: 17382
|
Remember though that an argument of "reasonableness" cannot be used as a defence against a charge help of an absolute offence. It may be considered a mitigation, but it cannot be a defence.
Many motoring offences are absolute, the fact for example that you have crossed a solid white line without authority means you have committed an offence and is indefensible. The fact that you do so in order to save a life may be considered to mitigate the offence but cannot mean that no offence was committed. If you're lucky, it will be considered favourably when the magistrate sentences you. (This example is in fact a topical problem for the Police, who have no more authority than the rest of us to cross solid whites. Whilst within reason a 'blind eye' will probably be turned, if a complaint is made, or an accident, incident, or near miss results, then a prosecution is inevitable and the driver had better hope he has a cast iron mitigation). Moving a vehicle off your drive because you object to it being there is likely to be much harder to mitigate than moving it because it is physically preventing you from going about your business (blocking in your works van, for example). |
||
|
4th Jan 2016 11:07pm |
|
| blackwolf Member Since: 03 Nov 2009 Location: South West England Posts: 17382
|
I suspect your only redress in this case is to sue the lout for compensation for your losses, direct and consequential, and costs. You would of course have to find out who he is, but DVLA should provide details of the vehicle's RK. Whilst it is likely that Johnny Lout has insufficient assets to make this attractive, it is possible that his insurance (if he has any) may cover it. It would probably focus the scrote's mind, if he has enough of one to focus! |
||
|
4th Jan 2016 11:16pm |
|
| Orangesofa Member Since: 10 Oct 2014 Location: Somerset Posts: 214
|
One would have to establish what the 'moving a car on your land' offence actually committed was first to establish if it was absolute or not. Neither breach of the peace nor criminal damage are absolute. Either way, what was the intent - to move something on your land which by it being there was costing you money with no intention of permanently depriving the owner access to their property and doing it in a manner to safeguard its security and with minimal damage - I would fancy my chances on that one in court on the basis of reasonable behaviour. If I did it within minutes of it arriving because I found the paint colour offensive and was reckless to any damage caused and moved it to a location to deny the owner access to it to 'teach him a lesson' then I would be stocking-up on vaseline in readiness for the days following my time in court! Interesting topic and should it ever be tested, you'd have to hope the magistrate had a grasp of the law and wasn't prone to parking in stranger's driveways him/herself!! Phil |
||
|
4th Jan 2016 11:40pm |
|
|
|
| All times are GMT |
< Previous Topic | Next Topic > |
Posting Rules
|
Site Copyright © 2006-2024 Futuranet Ltd & Martin Lewis
