 | Home > Off Topic > Towing without a B+E - I'm confused |
 
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| Cupboard Member Since: 21 Mar 2014 Location: Suffolk Posts: 2971   
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Pre 1997 licences don't need a B+E to tow a trailer, post 1997 do. That I'm happy with.
After that you've got pre-2013 licences, and 2013 and on licences, I'm in the pre-2013 camp. Last year when I looked it up, I'm almost 100% sure (I have it all printed out at work) that I could tow a trailer weighing up to 750kg with a vehicle up to 3500kg or a combined train weight of up to 3500kg, so that's Defender+750kg or Defender+1500kg for a 2000kg Defender. A later 2013- licence was similar but limited it to 3500kg MAM, so that's either Defender+750kg or Defender+500kg. I then had a conversation with a friend who told me he thought I was wrong, and so I've looked it up again. And got really confused... https://www.gov.uk/towing-with-car/driving...ou-can-tow
So pre and post 2013 are both the same, and both refer to the MAM (which basically means that the lighter the towing vehicle the heavier a trailer I can tow). But then we go here: https://www.gov.uk/towing-rules/y/car-or-l...9-Jan-2013
and here:
Which agree regarding the earlier licences (not in my favour) but is more lax for the later licences. Then we find this leaflet: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/syst...130715.pdf
This is a current document from 2015 that obviously knows what MAM is and refers to it in the first paragraph, but definitely doesn't in the second. It also makes no odds which side of 2013 you fall. The question is, which is correct, is there anyone I can ask and is there anywhere else I should be looking? |
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19th Dec 2015 8:46pm |
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| ARC99 Member Since: 19 Feb 2013 Location: North Yorkshire Posts: 1831 
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This is from the gov.uk site says.
Drivers who tow trailers If you want to tow a trailer weighing more than 750 kilograms when the combined weight of the towing vehicle and trailer is more than 3,500 kilograms you will have to pass a further test in category B+E. You will then be able to tow trailers up to 3,500 kilograms. To pull a heavier trailer you must pass a C1E test. If you got your driving entitlement before 19 January 2013 you will retain it. There are no further changes to rules on towing trailers. For further information on towing trailers please see booklet Requirements for towing trailers in Great Britain (INF30)(PDF 488kB). here the links to the pdf.https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/inf30-requirements-for-towing-trailers-in-great-britain Don't make old people mad. We don't like being old in the first place, so it doesn't take much to  us off.
Richard |
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19th Dec 2015 9:24pm |
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| Romadog Member Since: 07 Jul 2011 Location: Powys Posts: 1749 |
Very confusing due to the wording used by DVSA.
At work we had a question from a member of staff on this late on a friday afternoon and what we thought was all understood and an internal memo written, was thrown in to the air because of how the staff member interpreted the law sounded correct even though it also sounded totally wrong !! It all started with DVSA's quick search page where you enter your details and it tells you what you can tow. Problem is that the statements on this are shortened to make it less wordy ! So people who dont know any different get the wrong end of the stick. I always say ".. go back to the full wording for the correct info" We have people towing 750kg GVW chippers with transits rated at 3500kg GVW 
When one of these chippers was out of action a manager thought that the operative could on this day tow a heavier chipper as long as the towing vehicle's weight was low enough so that the train weight was no more than 3500kg. !! 
But having read things over and over again and foung leaflets etc from DVSA on the subject we started to see the mention of MAM Maximum Authorised Mass. This means that the operative can tow a heavier than 750kg trailer as long as the combined weight of the trailer MAM and vehicle MAM is not more than 3500kg. It is not to do with the weight over a weighbridge, but the potential rated weight. I'll stop there for now  |
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19th Dec 2015 9:28pm |
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| Cupboard Member Since: 21 Mar 2014 Location: Suffolk Posts: 2971
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Unfortunately I'm coming to the conclusion that this is correct, which is annoying. And means I can tow more with my 1.4 Hyundai than I can with my Defender. Which is clearly silly. And it also means that most people with caravans are fine, and they're probably the biggest towing risk of all bar old people with caravans who don't need to worry at all. |
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19th Dec 2015 9:38pm |
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| custom90 Member Since: 21 Jan 2010 Location: South West, England. Posts: 20364
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General rule of thumb is Unbraked = Cat B. Braked = Cat B + E.
Glad I got mine pre 2013, what's the difference between pre and post 2013? If you have a pre 1997 you have B + E though grandfather rights so to speak as standard and other categories. http://www.iwt.co.uk/customer-care/downloads/download/127 |
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19th Dec 2015 9:51pm |
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| Cupboard Member Since: 21 Mar 2014 Location: Suffolk Posts: 2971
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My previous understanding was that pre-2013 it was done on weighbridge weight but post was MAM.
That seems to have been wrong. There is potentially the case that a post-2013 B+E is limited to 3.5t which a pre 2013 isn't. TBH anything is possible! |
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19th Dec 2015 9:57pm |
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| Davie L Member Since: 04 Sep 2014 Location: Glasgow Posts: 95  
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I've just passed my b+e 6 weeks ago to enable me to tow my boat at 1200kgs and was told by the instructor that given my vehicle is allowed I'm allowed to up to 3.5t...now he's right isn't he?
I passed my car licence 12 years ago.. Davie |
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19th Dec 2015 10:14pm |
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| Retroanaconda Member Since: 04 Jan 2012 Location: Scotland Posts: 2645
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Just do the test. It's a piece of p**s and then you can tow anything you want.
Well. Up to 3,500kgs of course... which is very handily the maximum weight a Land Rover will pull  |
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19th Dec 2015 10:28pm |
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| custom90 Member Since: 21 Jan 2010 Location: South West, England. Posts: 20364
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What does the test involve?
I never went for it for it for a simple reason and that is the fact I'll never need anything more than what I have. Of course if you have visions or need of towing a boat, cars, plant etc then a pre 1997 or B + E is essential. If you are likely to want or need it for work it is as good as a qualification if you have a post 1997 licence. |
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19th Dec 2015 10:50pm |
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| Retroanaconda Member Since: 04 Jan 2012 Location: Scotland Posts: 2645
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Series of questions, hitch/unhitch drill, reversing exercise and a road test. It's all published so you can set the course out in a field and practice 'till you can do it blind.
If you can reverse a trailer then you can pass it already. If not then it's easy to learn, they cheat by using marks in the trailer body that line up with the mirrors etc. to tell you when to turn so anyone can do it. The trailer is a nice big one too so easy to reverse. Ironically much simpler than those stupid little car trailers that become invisible behind a Defender. The road test part of it is about road positioning and things like that, but they also check for all the same stuff as the normal driving test. Things like mirror signal manoeuvre, tyres and tarmac etc. |
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19th Dec 2015 10:59pm |
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| miker Member Since: 13 Sep 2015 Location: Surrey Posts: 1763 
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Cat B Towing:
EVERYONE can tow an unbraked 750kg Trailer. For trailers over 750kg: Total maximum plated weight of trailer + total maximum plated weight of car must be less than or equal to 3500kg. IE car MAM 2000kg, trailer MAM 1500kg, all OK. Trailer MAM must be less than car kerb weight. Which puts me in the situation that I can tow a heavier trailer with my seat ibiza than my 110! |
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19th Dec 2015 11:02pm |
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| mse Member Since: 06 Apr 2008 Location: UK Posts: 5035 
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I have all the entitlements so it doesn't matter, but just a note that one of the changes was to remove the limit (up to the towing vehicle s actual limits of course etc) so the +E doesn't limit you to a weight eg a trailer of 3.5t, it means you can tow over the limit As someone who doesn't follow it at all now, it used to be weigh bridge weight rather than potential weight of the trailer. The cars weight applies of course Mike |
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19th Dec 2015 11:41pm |
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| blackwolf Member Since: 03 Nov 2009 Location: South West England Posts: 17382 
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I am so glad I passed my car test pre-97 and HGV test when it was still "Class 1 HGV" and you could go straight from car to Class 1!
It - like almost all motoring law - has now become absurdly complex. It doesn't seem to have improved the standard of driving either. |
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20th Dec 2015 8:46am |
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| Cupboard Member Since: 21 Mar 2014 Location: Suffolk Posts: 2971
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Without coupled brakes
Some Land Rovers (Defenders and Discoveries but not all of them) are 4t.
Our electricians have been swearing about new regs coming in about fireproof consumer units. The quality of electrical equipment has become so bad that you often get a bad connection despite having torqued it up properly which then causes a fire. Rather than sort the root problem out they're moving to have to use fireproof boxes for the kit. My dad used to be in the private client tax department of PwC and he's forever grumbling about how complicated it was all becoming. At one point even wrote a letter to the then chancellor, Gordon Brown, telling him how stupid a load of his new rules were and pointing out a load of obvious loopholes. Was ignored, so he started using all the loopholes (as that what he was paid for after all) only to get a letter complaining that he wasn't sticking to the spirit of the rules and could he be a bit more sporting please. |
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20th Dec 2015 10:16am |
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