 | Home > Technical > ATB (torsen) front and rear install |
 
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| Anderzander Member Since: 08 Feb 2011 Location: Lancashire Posts: 999  
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Fulcrum ?
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13th Jun 2015 5:14pm |
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| taazzukcb Member Since: 30 Aug 2013 Location: Derbyshire Posts: 663 
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Fulcrum bracket is the bit which holds the A-Frame ball joint which goes into the top of the rear axle.
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13th Jun 2015 10:04pm |
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| bpman Member Since: 21 May 2008 Location: Oslo Posts: 8069 
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Not quite, I fitted the wide angle one with the grease nip
http://www.paddockspares.com/fulcrum-brack...ation.html http://www.defender2.net/forum/topic35531.html?highlight=fulcrum |
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14th Jun 2015 5:10am |
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| tatra805 Member Since: 16 Aug 2011 Location: Dolany Posts: 436  
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As we wandered off a bit towards axles hereby some findings on mine:
Drive flange OEM 70 000 km: replaced due to play
Drive flange Britpart 35 000 km: replaced due to play. Click image to enlarge
Driveshafts splines had minimal wear at 70 000. Now they look: Click image to enlarge Click image to enlarge Note that the OEM drive flanges were installed "dry" and the britpart ones in the "wet" setup (no oil seals in the axles so continues lubrication of the splines) Now replaced by HD ashcroft shafts and HD drive flanges. No need to mention the drive improved greatly. The dreaded gearbox adapter shaft taken from my 2008 at 105 000 km: certainly never greased
Admin note: this post has had its images recovered from a money grabbing photo hosting site and reinstated  |
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24th Jul 2015 8:21am |
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| o4dn Member Since: 08 Jan 2010 Location: South West Posts: 538  
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Makes me wonder, has anyone seen any of those shafts greased from factory, I mean, ever?? |
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24th Jul 2015 11:05am |
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| taazzukcb Member Since: 30 Aug 2013 Location: Derbyshire Posts: 663
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Drive members haven't been greased from the factory since late TD5.
The gearbox one though is a bit of a fail from LR. Some sort of provision should of been made as it's not a simple job unlike the drive members. |
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24th Jul 2015 11:16am |
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| WiZa Member Since: 31 Oct 2015 Location: Großweil Posts: 11 
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For the moment I am between the decision to take to ATB type "lockers" or to have one ATB in the front and one 100% locker in the rear axle. On the one hand I think the best solution would be the first idea because most of the time we will be as you call it "green Laners". On the other hand sometimes in the year we are really doing "heavier" off road stuff. But the main proposes is to prepare our Landy (TD4 2,4l 2007) for a longer South America tour. We need to trust in our technique equipment; so we need good quality and technique that makes sense for your propose. It won't be good for us to stuck alone in the desert of Atacama or a other lonely trail... while having problems with e.g. lockers...
1) Talking about LSDs as I understood Quaife seems to have the best quality? So how would you describe the quality of ATB from Ashcroft? What is your experience until now? Failures? There are people running TrueTrac since years although they a generally described to have poor technique, not so reliable… 2) do you think it makes sense to have 100% locker (manual) in the rear and ATB type diff. in the front? With ATB we think that we will not get stucked so easy and if we do so we can(may be) push ourselves through with the 100% ...? So how would you describe the positive effect of just one a ATB in the front ? Really helpful or much poorer effect as having twice ATB or similar "locker".. (We have TC; and to help ourselves finally we have a winch) 3) ARB 100% seems no to be so good in comparison with Ashcroft 100% locker. Is this relay like this? Or aren´t there running a uncountable amount of ARBs all over the world? And I am a bit afraid that we may not can get easily replacement parts for Ashcroft 100% manual locker as we do for ARB lockers in South America? Neither for other Ashcroft products (but I don´t know how easy it wood be instead with Quaife or Detroid TrueTrac) The other point is that Ashcroft products only can be ordered in G.B. (there seams not to be any reseller in Germany). Thank from the south of Germany. Johannes |
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31st Oct 2015 8:27pm |
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| bpman Member Since: 21 May 2008 Location: Oslo Posts: 8069
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I have ATB's front and rear, mine worked well on wet grass during the summer, but equally no great difference on a recent motorway trip to Switzerland
Reason I chose ATB from Ashcroft is no messing with air or electrics, purely automatic and silent operation |
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31st Oct 2015 8:37pm |
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| WiZa Member Since: 31 Oct 2015 Location: Großweil Posts: 11
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But there is a point I never got an answer to for myself :
How is the performance of just one ATB in the front? Would it be much poorer then having two ATB? So what do you think are the positive effects of just having one ATB? I'm asking this because as a mentioned I think abut the solution having 100% manual rear air lockers and ATB as front diff. Thanks. |
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2nd Nov 2015 10:02pm |
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| blackwolf Member Since: 03 Nov 2009 Location: South West England Posts: 17353
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For a while I was running an ATB up front and a standard open diff at rear (I broke the rear ATB!
 ) and you do get better traction than open at both ends but only when the centre diff is locked. If not, as soon as one rear wheel spins you have no traction.
In reality ATBs work best in pairs because they're smooth, silent, and autonomous in operation, and I think 2 ATBs actually make more sense than one ATB and a full locker (I suppose the ultimate would be a pair of ATBs with manual full locks, but no-one makes such a thing). I have, as a test, had my 110 stalled through lack of grip on a steep muddy/grassy track (private property) with the CDL unlocked, and all four wheels have been rotating at the same speed exactly as they would with the CDL locked. Admittedly this will be largely a matter of luck - both axles must have provided exactly the same drag or load - but I was impressed and I doubt it could happen without ATBs. I have Airlockers at both ends in a Series 1 and they are awesome, however on a daily driver I think ATBs win hands down since they require no driver input or particular thought, have no unwelcome side effects, and are very nearly as good when the going gets tough. As an afterthought, I have ATBs in both axles and no TC. I would much rather have this set-up than open diffs with TC, and as far as I can determine my Defender can go places that a standard Defender with TC can't. TC should work well with an ATB though. |
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3rd Nov 2015 7:46am |
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| WiZa Member Since: 31 Oct 2015 Location: Großweil Posts: 11
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Thanks a lot for your interesting and really helpful post.
I understand that full lockers never can be beaten by ATB diffs. in extreme off-road situations. But I understand too that ATB “..are very nearly as good when the going gets tough.” (Good as 100% lockers). So as we have a TD4 2,4 with TC the improvement of ATB should be even better having in mind other posts and what “Dave A.” says. And I know understand (hopefully  ) the advantage of installing two ATB (front & rear).
As a consequence I think my decision should go straight towards twice ATB. Second question: do you thing installing twice ATB it is really necessary to improve other parts (e.g. half shafts…) of the drive train? And if so, what parts. I thing the drive-train-improvement-question is more a question if thinking about full lockers… There are some opinions/ schools who are thinking that no-improvement (e.g. half shafts) is better just to suffer a possible damage in the cheapest part of the drive train…others are saying especially HD half shafts are leading to less drive train damage because there are not only stronger but can suffer more torsion and because of this the power of traction is not going straight through the central drive train (it is consumed by torsion).. Thanks, Johannes |
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3rd Nov 2015 10:13am |
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| mikeh501 Member Since: 07 Jan 2013 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 1142
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Id just upgrade your diffs to ATB's and not worry about shafts and CV's. Yes there will be more torque applied to the high traction wheel than would normally be the case with an open diff but its not the same as a full locker.
Most shaft breakages are due to aggressive off road driving, especially when wheels are off the floor. All IMHO... ive never broken a shaft and do stuff which is far far more aggressive than green laning. FYI, i have a rear ATB, rear ashcroft shafts and drive members. My new build has 3 ashcroft ATB's but im not upgrading the front shafts or CV's. As for ATB's vs Lockers..... 2 things. 1.) Once a wheel is completely off the floor you will lose the ATB's ability to "lock". traction control might compensate but cant imagine it will completely hold a wheel. 2.) Given ATB's are automatic, you dont have to think about engaging it prior to driving the terrain. How many times do you know you will get stuck before you drive it? id say not very often especially if greenlaning. |
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3rd Nov 2015 12:31pm |
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| blackwolf Member Since: 03 Nov 2009 Location: South West England Posts: 17353
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I would categorically recommend fitting Ashcroft HD halfshafts, drive flanges, and (at the front) CV joints at the same time as the ATB diffs.
Although generally adequate, the original LR parts are far from over-engineered and are well-known for wearing. Initially I fitted the ATB up front with original halfshafts (after my original 2-gear diff failed) and some time later the short halfshaft gave up, and damaged the side gear of the diff in the process. Although I was able to rebuild the ATB and rectify most of the damage, the side gear is not (or at least, was not at the time) available as a spare part, so I knew the diff was going to fail terminally before too long. I rebuilt the front axle with the centre from the rear ATB together with Ashcroft HD shafts etc, and put the compromised ATB centre in the rear axle witha a set of pre-used OE shafts, and when the rear diff finally packed up rebuilt it with a new ATB and Ashcroft HD shafts etc. This, incidentally, is why as noted above I had for a time a front ATB and open rear diff. The Ashcroft HD parts have already proved far more durable than the genuine parts. I do a lot of miles (the vehicle is approaching 180k) and the Ashcroft parts have outlived two sets of LR parts I had previously, and are still in good shape. They are favourably priced compared to genuine too. It was definitely a false economy for me not to upgrade the halfshafts in the front axle and cost me a diff! Lesson learned the hard way! |
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3rd Nov 2015 12:59pm |
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| blackwolf Member Since: 03 Nov 2009 Location: South West England Posts: 17353
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TC should be very effective at braking an elevated wheel sufficient to bias the ATB back to the gripping wheel, and in fact should be a very capable combination. If you don't have TC the same effect requires a touch of the brakes. I don't have TC and wouldn't want it on a Defender, mainly because on a Defender you know it's going to go wrong a cost a packet to repair, but also because I like to be in control of the vehicle, not vice versa. But I don't for a moment doubt that an ATB-fitted, TC-equipped vehicle is probably the ultimate for a daily driver used both on and off the road. |
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3rd Nov 2015 1:07pm |
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