 | Home > Puma (Tdci) > Busted Bearing and what else....? |
 
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| Hal Member Since: 04 Jun 2014 Location: Bedford Posts: 91  
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Good video here, older land rover but the principle is the same, should give you a good idea whether you can do it yourself. Might need new stub axle as well as bearings and stuff.
This guy is pretty quick! |
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3rd Aug 2015 7:03pm |
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| brayn Member Since: 28 Dec 2013 Location: Switzerland Posts: 8  
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Thanks Hal.
I was wondering whether I'd need to get a new stub axle. I'm just wondering if I need a new hub too... I guess it is more or less impossible to tell without tearing the thing down... Just figure it could be toast too... One thing I am trying to get my head around is the fact that as its a 90, the half shaft and flange are a one piece. So when I disassemble the hub, I have to remove the whole length of the half shaft decoupling it from the diff (If i am wrong here, then the technical drawings in the MY2007 manual are all over the shop). a). prepare for a fair bit of diff oil to make it's way out as I remove the axle... I guess there is a seal at the diff end... but I haven't found a drawing. b). replace the inner seal on the stub axle (the one between the stub and the half shaft). Figure If I'm routing about in the nether regions of the hub, would be silly not to. c). Be careful not to ram the half shaft in like a spanner upon reassembly. Anyway... I'll be having a butchers as soon as I get the truck home... not sure how that will go down... |
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4th Aug 2015 12:17pm |
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| blackwolf Member Since: 03 Nov 2009 Location: South West England Posts: 17372 
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It's actually a very easy job to strip and overhaul the stub axle/hub assembly.
The halfshaft will slide out once the five bolts are removed. Unless the axle is grossly overfilled with oil, you shouldn't lose any from the axle/diff, though it does helpf if you jack the end you're working on up reasonably high (look for the filler/level plug on the diff and make sure the end of the axle is higher. depending on how severe the bearing failure was, you may well need to replace the stub axle (which just unbolts) and the hub - it is more likely that the stub axle is damaged than the hub, since it is rare that the outer wheelbearing races rotate in the hub, but common for the inner races to rotate on the stub axle when the bearing fails. A new stub axle will (if genuine) come with the internal oil seal fitted (it's actually not an important seal - it stops oil migrating into the wheelbearings and causes accelerated wear if you have the halfshafts with separate drive flanges. Many people remove this seal althogether). You will need new wheelbearings, a new hub nut, a new hub oil seal. If you replace the hub you will need to decide whether to stick with the spacer between the bearings or change to the old-style arrangement with no spacer but two hub nuts (this is discussed at some length elsewhere on this forum). Again both arrangements have advantages and disadvantages, it is a matter of personal preference. Be aware that if you fitt a new hub you may find that you need a different size spacer between the bearings, the procedure for setting them up is in the Puma WSM. Good luck with the repair! Last edited by blackwolf on 29th Sep 2015 12:05pm. Edited 1 time in total |
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4th Aug 2015 1:01pm |
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| brayn Member Since: 28 Dec 2013 Location: Switzerland Posts: 8
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Right, So i finally got around to having a hack at this wheel bearing... and so far, lets say it is surprising.
The brake caliper was an absolute b@...... to get off, but some dangerous wrench action and it is now safely hanging from some rope....  Click image to enlarge So pic 1... that's what it all looked like.. splays of cooked grease/oil all over my crazy 'disco 1' alloys... I think they're from a disco 1... (As an aside, I've found a screw has been inserted radially into my Tire once I took the wheel off... I'm not happy about that, but hey, at least that didn't explode, I'll have to see about getting it fixed... today is getting expensive). Click image to enlarge Pic 2... I thought I would be taking out the half shaft with drive shaft attached... but turns out I have some oldschool version... no stress its all good... Off with the cover, and clip... Click image to enlarge Pic 3... Are those bolts supposed to be different lengths...?  should they be able to be undone by hand...? Hmm, I think not... (I would however like to know if there is supposed to be a gasket here, because there wasn't...). Also, note the drive flange interior, which is coated with a metal rich sludge...
Click image to enlarge Pic 4... Here is where the fun has well and truly started/stopped.  The hub nut washer has wedged itself around the stub axle... You can see the gap it has created on the machined spline of the stub... I'm thinking this is not a good thing...
I have no idea how I will get this off... I have attacked it with a drill, with punches... I have decided that I will stop here for the morning, I found a bottle of cognac in my garage, and I have a beer in the fridge, and there will be rugby on soon, so it might have to wait until the cognac/beer cocktail has provided me the necessary moral support/dutch courage, and or someone in the neighborhood just happens by with a whopping great big washer extraction device or some such... Anyway, the bearing is atomized. there are little bits of metal falling out all over the place, I figure if, and that's a big if, I can get the hub off, I will need to get my local mechanics to drill out the broken bolt shafts. But being in Switzerland, its probably cheaper to get a hub assembly sent over from Paddocks or something. I have a replacement stub axle, so at least if I get the hub off, I can fix that bit... I guess changing the hub washer shouldn't influence the spacer issue if the hub is intact? |
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19th Sep 2015 10:33am |
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| Mike_B Member Since: 23 Jan 2011 Location: Moray Posts: 550 
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Sounds like a fun job then.. So up to now the list includes:
New bearing Staked nut Drive Flange paper gasket Oil Seal Circlip Stub axle possibly a hub, if this one cant be repaired. If you take the hub off, can you sccess the remainder of the bolts from the rear and use an extractor? It may be easier this way as the scrap bolt has less distance to travel.. Maybe soak in enetrating oil too? If not, drill it out then clean up with a tap? |
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19th Sep 2015 4:39pm |
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| brayn Member Since: 28 Dec 2013 Location: Switzerland Posts: 8
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Mike,
I think your plan is a good one, my workshop bloke at work should be able to do it for me, as I think that fundamentally the hub should still be in good shape... (I don't have either a lefty bit or extractor... I Could buy them as I'm sure they'd come in handy in the future). But, it seems that the inner bearing shell has seized/welded onto the stub able and or the Bearing nut washer... I have been trying all methods to remove it (rocking poorly seated wheel etc)... But I'll be damned if it isn't stuck hard and fast. The bearing did seize on the highway, so it was moving fairly fast. Looks like my best bet now is to cut out the washer exterior with a carbide disc... So the hub might get a little bit scuffed, but I figure it will be cosmetic damage... I can see the outer sleeve rotating with the hub through a slit I've cut through, so I'll persevere and then I'll bust whatever's left of the bearing on the way out... Hopefully that'll free up enough room to then remove the stub axle... Or maybe the hub will just come off... Here's hoping. |
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20th Sep 2015 12:39pm |
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| brayn Member Since: 28 Dec 2013 Location: Switzerland Posts: 8
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Oh yeah, one more thing, does anyone know the exact part number for the hub nut washer? I'll probably order it from a local garage, but I can't tell is it's the one I think it is...
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20th Sep 2015 12:41pm |
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| hornet Member Since: 04 Jan 2010 Location: Western Europe Posts: 361 |
If you mean number 13, partnumber is FTC5241. Its thickness should be irrelevant.
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22nd Sep 2015 7:39am |
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| blackwolf Member Since: 03 Nov 2009 Location: South West England Posts: 17372
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Bit of a mess.
The sheared drive flange bolts can probably be drilled out if you can get hold of a left hand drill and an extractor. It is a fairly common problem and generally they come out. The bolts are grade 10.9 and when you replace them an option whcih is cheaper than using genuine parts is to use standard hex socket head cap screws (the things that are widely and completely inaccurately called "Allen bolts") since these are 10.9 as standard. The reason they tend to shear is that the hole gets bunged up with gasket compound and/or thread locker, and I now only use spring washers and never thread lock on these (it worked for 50+ years and it's only a recent economy thing that made LR change to thread locker). The drive flange holes are blind and don't come out the back, by the way. Since the hub may well have been held on by the caliper and brake disc as the bearings failed you may need to replace the disc as well (if so don't forget to do the axle pair, not just one). Certainly check for disc run-out on reassembly, and chek the caliper for damage. Getting the hub off may be extreley difficult and you may have to beg/steal/borrow the biggest hub puller you can find. On the LR of course the fact that there's a hollow stub axle also causes a problem, since the puller need something to press against. You need to improvise some kind of bung to press against. If changing the bearings you will probab;y want to convert the set-up to the earlier style with two nuts and no spacer, and this will almost certainly be necessary if you're changing the hub. If not, it is very likely that the spacer will need replacing for a different size, whch is a pain since they're not cheap and you cannot predict in advance which one you'll need. There are no disavantages whatsoever to going to the ealier method, and many advantages (again it was a change adopted for reason of production line economy as far as i can tell. You'll need the two nuts and the tab washer, and you can discard the stake nut and the spacer. there are other threads on here with the part numbers etc. |
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22nd Sep 2015 9:49am |
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| brayn Member Since: 28 Dec 2013 Location: Switzerland Posts: 8
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Evening all,
Thanks again for the advice and encouragement. The good news is I got the hub off this evening.  I took to the sub axle and washer with a dremel and a heavy duty grinding disc. Basically once I managed to grind of enough of the inner conical race to extract the rollers, I was then able to yank the hub off with a couple of swift wiggles...
The inner bearing(one closest to diff, as is there was any confusion) was intact, but along with the rest of the outer bearing and the spacer, it is pretty well seized onto the stub... (Which will be going on the metal bin at the office once it's more or less cleaned of grease, must follow rules). I'm going to have a go at extracting the remaining bolt shafts (first one was easy, the others are proving somewhat more stubborn). And then I'll clean up the hub and investigate if it is reusable, but at least first inspections seem to suggest it hasn't been too badly damaged... (Apart from my pin point precision grinding job, err, run off). I'll have to read up on the double bolt modification, as I'm not sure how to set the bearing pre-load correctly... (But I'm guessing the first bolt sets the pre load, and the second fixes the first and the crazy bent washer prevents stuff moving about... But then that's just a guess...). Now that i think about it, Should I get new bolts for the stub axle or can I reuse the ones that I just took off? Anyway, I'm feeling pretty proud of myself for having persevered in the face of what at least I consider to have been a bit of a nasty situation... I'm sure most of my neighbors think I'm crazy... Hehe. |
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23rd Sep 2015 5:55pm |
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| newhue Member Since: 28 Apr 2014 Location: Brisbane Posts: 351 
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Good work Bryan, my left rear failed on me the other day, but not as catastrophic as yours. Just lost the casing off the outer bearing and started an oil leak for a week or three before I got round to realising the wheel was about to fail. Had quite a wobble up upon inspection.
I just cleaned the calliper and re ran it, thought I'd see if there was an issue before I put a kit through it. Luckily it all back to normal. The bearing in question was a 70K km old, and not a Timken. My diff has had plenty of work swapping out Detroit lockers to ARBs, to replaced pinion bearings warn from a loose A frame. It only takes one piece of crap to pit a bearing and start the process. It might be worth giving the whole diff a refurb, or a dam good clean at the least.. My Defender and travels |
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29th Sep 2015 7:57am |
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| mikeh501 Member Since: 07 Jan 2013 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 1142
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I believe there are torque figures for the nuts (not bolts) which hold the outer bearing and wheel but everyone ive spoken to do it by feel. My approach is to tighten the first nut until the bearing is nicely seated and its "hand tight". Make sure the wheel still turns nice and freely. you shouldnt have any binding. Then untighten by 1/4 turn. Now put your lock washer in place and tighten up the outer hub nut. I made this "fairly tight"  but not BT (  tight!). Again see if the wheel runs nice and free. Also check for play in each direction on the wheel by pushing L/R U/D etc. Once happy lock the washer over on both side "in" one way, and "out" the other. Im expecting to run it for a few miles and then inspect and retighten if necessary to account for any bedding in play of the bearing. |
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29th Sep 2015 10:08am |
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| blackwolf Member Since: 03 Nov 2009 Location: South West England Posts: 17372
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Much as Mike says above, my routine for old-style, two-nut bearings is to assemble the hub and bearings onto the stub axle, fit the thrust washer and screw the inner nut on by finger (or using a box spanner without a tommy bar) whilst spinning the hub. It is correct when the hub spins freely but there is zero end-float on the bearings.
You'll be able to tell easily enough when the bearings start to get tight, since the hub will be stiffer to spin. When this happens, back off the nut a smidge so that it becomes free again but doesn't have perceptible end float. The lock nut (or jam nut if you prefer the terminology) doesn't need to be ridiculously tight, since all it is doing is adding the friction necessary to stop the nuts unwinding. I was going to say "think wheel nut" for tightness, but having seen what some people do to wheel nuts this possibly isn't a great analogy. Be sensible! Be aware also that tightening the lock nut will always push the inner nut further in too and tighten the bearings, so check and if need be re-adjust before bending the tab washer over. When you do bend the washer, I always bend one part outwards over a flat on the lock nut (essential), and also one inwards over a flat of the inner nut (not esssential but gives me peace of mind). It really is much simpler to set up the two-nut arrangement than the single stake nut arrangement. I renewed my (original factory fitted) ROS wheelbearings recently and using new Timken bearings and the original spacer the bearings were way too tight. Rather than faff about with spacers I simply went to the old style two nut system. Simple, and far superior in almost every respect. |
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29th Sep 2015 12:16pm |
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| Happyoldgit Member Since: 14 Sep 2007 Location: Norfolk Posts: 3471 
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Agreed, I still feel the original two nut system is much better than the later stake nut. Steve.
Owned numerous Land Rover vehicles of all shapes and sizes over the decades. Current Defender: A non tarts hand-bagged Puma 110 XS USW. [Insert something impressive here such as extensive list of previous Land Rovers or examples of your prestigeous and expensive items, trinkets, houses, bikes, vehicles etc] http://forums.lr4x4.com I used to be Miserable ...but now I'm ecstatic. |
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29th Sep 2015 2:34pm |
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