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| Grenadier Member Since: 23 Jul 2014 Location: The foot of Mont Blanc... Posts: 5816   
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Just looked at the JE site, lots of nice stuff. But what amazes me about the upgrades available with them (and on many equivalent sites) is why anyone would pay so much more than the combined value of the 'kit' to get them fitted?
For example, their fitted price for the AP Big Brake kit (front only) is £3000. One assumes the rear would be perhaps half again. However, to buy the calipers is just £525 per corner, (including Mintex/Ferrodo pads) with a couple of hundred quid more for a hose upgrade. Likewise, to buy Bilstein B6 dampers is just £120 per corner, with perhaps another £100 per spring, whilst a pair (front and rear) of extreme ARBs is just £500. Finally add a full Polybush kit for £125. So to buy the brake kit it would be approx £2000 for the AP Racing 6-pots (there are obviously cheaper versions better suited to daily usage) and for a B6 upgrade and associated parts it would be approx £1500. All in, therefore, £3500 for the kit. This is in comparison with perhaps £7500 for the kit and fitting by JE and Bowler (for the sussies). 
I know we aren't all mechanically minded, nor necessarily have access to workshops, but £4000 for fitting, really? Surely even the biggest mechanical muppet on this site (I'm up there) could buy the parts, find a local garage and pay them for fitting? Indeed it is what I intend to do for the B6's and will help them for the day to learn as well. I understand the need to pay for skilled tuning etc, spray painting or even for the skills associated with trimming leather etc as done by FCX. But does a suspension or caliper change, which in basic terms equates to a lift, handful of nuts and bolts, spring/damper/brake removal and replacement, qualify as enough of a skill to warrant £4000 in labour.? I know there are associated costs (rates, liability insurance, tax, profit margins etc) but taking an average of £75/hr for labour (based on a survey last year by Warranty Direct where the most expensive average hourly rate (London) was £90/hr and the cheapest (Angus) was £60/hr) which already factors in those costs, that equates to over 50hrs of labour, or assuming an 8hr working day, six full days of work to change suspension, change springs, upgrade polybushes, add ARBs, replace calipers and discs, upgrade hoses and bleed the system. Really? 
Surely it's taking the p***, non?  Monsieur Le Grenadier
I've not been everywhere, but it's on my list..... 2011 Puma 110DC - Corris Grey |
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2nd Sep 2015 7:43am |
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| Grenadier Member Since: 23 Jul 2014 Location: The foot of Mont Blanc... Posts: 5816
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Out of interest Greeni, do you know what the standard height is for the rear of a 110? I saw mine sitting alongside an identical year/model, both unmodified as far as I am aware (at least when concerning the suspension/ride height) and mine seemed noticeably higher at the rear. Can this just be from the Blindos or Cooper ST Maxx tyres? Monsieur Le Grenadier
I've not been everywhere, but it's on my list..... 2011 Puma 110DC - Corris Grey |
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2nd Sep 2015 7:57am |
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| MartinK Member Since: 02 Mar 2011 Location: Silverdale (Lancashire/Cumbria Border) Posts: 2665  
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GREENI - hadn't thought of that! The CSW springs raise the back, making it harder for MrsK to get in and out of. I thought it would improve the handling to drop it back (and a bit more). Like the lateral thinking tho  Defender "Puma" 2.4 110 County Utility (possibly the last of the 2.4's) |
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2nd Sep 2015 7:59am |
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| GREENI Member Since: 22 Aug 2010 Location: staffs Posts: 10381
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Without googling it I'm not sure on the height, though taller tyres will obviously affect the height, also springs 'sag' over time, so it may depend on age of the two motors?
The -1 springs I put on the 90, are (at the moment) making it sit 10mm higher than the old normal springs, when I first fitted them, they were 80mm higher, so have sagged over a period of 6 weeks. I put a couple of spare wheel/tyres in the tub to assist with the sagging! EDIT: sorry Grenadier, I forgot they were the same age d'oh !! I have an app on my phone which has a tyre size calculator... 'Tremec' the gearbox people, worth having 
Martin, I've always disliked how the 110 sits ass up, so it was one of the first mods I did, +1 OME springs at the front... Last edited by GREENI on 2nd Sep 2015 8:06am. Edited 1 time in total |
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2nd Sep 2015 8:02am |
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| Barney12 Member Since: 09 Jun 2015 Location: South West Posts: 744 
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I have to say I agree with you Grenadier but I don't resent the likes of JE, Bowler, Twisted etc. They have all worked hard on their brand and clearly charge the prices they do because people will pay it. In very simple terms "supply and demand".
The reality is a good number of their customers will never frequent defender2.net as they are simply buying the Defender ideals, concept; lifestyle etc etc etc. They've jumped on the "brandwagon" (pun intended!). There are some good mid ground suppliers though. Alive being a good example when it comes to 'supply only'. I don't have the prices to hand (I've written them on other threads) but from memory my Alive package was £700 for 4x springs, 5x bilsteins. My local Indy fitted them in 2.5 hours for £120 ish. I did alot of research and many supply exactly the same thing for much much more money, even on a supply only basis but choose to brand the set-up as their own. Without wanting to take this thread off topic perhaps the more interesting question is "how long will the hype last?" There is no doubt that the end of production has caused a wave of excitement and interest in the brand. But give it a few years (and especially once its replacement arrives) and the Defender will move into "classic car enthusiast" territory. That will be the time that the strength of the big brands will be tested. My money is on the market for such companies shrinking and rapidly. Of course the enthusiasts will survive. The likes of Alex/Alive, Matt/FCX, Brendan/4x4Overland because they are living their love and passion for the Defender. Just my 2p's worth. |
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2nd Sep 2015 8:04am |
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| Likeomg Member Since: 29 Jun 2012 Location: Lake District / Newcastle Posts: 2640 
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JE's prices are a little bit higher than elsewhere...
Supplied: £2700 Fitted: £2995 dont forget this is +vat. so where talking about 3600 fitted... I think parts wise, there not average callipers that'd go on most cars, i know the rears are special builds and hard to get.. the discs are close enough to 600 to buy, pads, adapters it soon ads up. The suspension packages, i dont think they use b6 dampers? thought it was some custom valved stuff? |
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2nd Sep 2015 8:05am |
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| Grenadier Member Since: 23 Jul 2014 Location: The foot of Mont Blanc... Posts: 5816
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LikeOMG, exactly. And that's just for the front. The prices I listed are taken from the AP website and are the same pots as used for special vechicles/4x4s. Re Bowler, they do say the suspension is Bilstein, but is tuned. I have to say given the 'rugged' nature of a Defender and the basic chassis, flex in the over-sized tryes, ride height etc, I am noy sure how much 'tuning' you can do to a damper before it becomes time-wasted? Better spent in the pub, if you ask me, and the price difference (especially when compared with Barney's example) would allow for a lot of Ale. I know from experience the difference good suspension set up can make to a motorbike, perhaps a Ferrari or Caterham, but a Defender?
Barney, quite right and the way to go IMHO. I appreciate the brands have worked hard and the cachet of buying these top brands (and the demand) means they can command more, but for something as simple as this? As mentioned, I would never tackle leather work (FCX, I will make a visit one day!! ) nor tuning, which I would leave to any of the brands you mention, but basic brake and sussie work at these prices is taking the p*** in anyone's book. If I had the money, perhaps I would understand the desire (as with Twisted) to remove and replace every panel so that they line up as well as on a Bentley. But rough nut and bolt work.....? Monsieur Le Grenadier
I've not been everywhere, but it's on my list..... 2011 Puma 110DC - Corris Grey |
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2nd Sep 2015 11:01am |
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| Likeomg Member Since: 29 Jun 2012 Location: Lake District / Newcastle Posts: 2640
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to be honest grenadier, i have all the mods done, i have front ap racing 6 pots and 4 on the rear, lowered suspension with blisteins, huge intercooler / hybrid turbo / big remap... the difference is night and day, costly but to me worth it. i didn't drop all the cash in one day, it has been cumulative over the last few years.
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2nd Sep 2015 11:23am |
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| Grenadier Member Since: 23 Jul 2014 Location: The foot of Mont Blanc... Posts: 5816
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Sounds awesome!!
Don't get me wrong, I intend to do all of the above, just a bit shocked when it is done for you by the big names as opposed to the 'local' garage or DIY. No issue with the material prices nor what they offer in improvements. But I fully accept not everyone has the time or inclination to go elsewhere or tinker at home, or (quite rightly) feel they want it done by the best. Monsieur Le Grenadier
I've not been everywhere, but it's on my list..... 2011 Puma 110DC - Corris Grey |
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2nd Sep 2015 11:27am |
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| Grenadier Member Since: 23 Jul 2014 Location: The foot of Mont Blanc... Posts: 5816
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For what it's worth, I just measured my rear end  and it is 2035mm. Standard height seems to be 2021. I suppose the ST Maxx's make the difference? Monsieur Le Grenadier
I've not been everywhere, but it's on my list..... 2011 Puma 110DC - Corris Grey |
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2nd Sep 2015 11:35am |
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| Likeomg Member Since: 29 Jun 2012 Location: Lake District / Newcastle Posts: 2640
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Go to rakeway for the brakes... there a great bunch of guys who actually fitted mine for next to nothing, id really recommend having a more specialist fit the rears as they aren't as straight forward.. especially if you have abs. |
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2nd Sep 2015 11:47am |
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| need4speed Member Since: 23 Nov 2012 Location: Kilmarnock Posts: 746 |
The height (length) of a spring only affects travel. It has nothing to do with ride quality. It's the poundage of the spring that affects the ride..
So long as you have a light poundage, progressive spring, the ride should be plush regardless of height. Higher poundage springs really only need to be used when carrying heavy loads or trying to corner as fast as you can.. |
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2nd Sep 2015 11:58am |
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| Mr Fox Member Since: 10 Sep 2011 Location: green & pleasant land Posts: 1037 
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Cheers, I can never remember the correct terminology for springs. Light and progressive is exactly what I'd like. Have spoken with Alive and the 'comfort spring', which is progressive, is at least a few months away. I'm going to measure the Def tonight (again), against the garage door, and make sure I am absolutely certain about the minimum drop I need. Once this is done, I'll look at options and make a decision.
Will do Martin. |
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3rd Sep 2015 1:25pm |
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| need4speed Member Since: 23 Nov 2012 Location: Kilmarnock Posts: 746 |
The problem I can see you encountering is that lowering is normally synonymous with stiffening. Which means heavier poundage springs.
May I ask the intended usage of your defender? For example will it be seeing some off-road use as intended by LR, or is it a road going school-run queen like so many on here? 
If it's the former, may I suggest altering/changing your garage door in order to get it to fit... It will open up so many options when it comes to springs. I'm in the same boat as you. I have terrafirma +2" light-duty progressive springs on my 110 and while they are very plush/compliant, I had to push it into the garage on bare rims without tyres in order to complete my build. I'm putting in a new roller garage door as we speak because there ain't no way I'm swapping out my springs! |
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3rd Sep 2015 2:41pm |
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