blackwolf wrote:

Chicken Drumstick wrote:

... As for 4x4’s. The Land Rovers father the Wrangler ...

The Wrangler - introduced in 1986 - is not the Land-Rover's father !

The Ford GPW or Willys MB could be considered thus, but more properly perhaps Harold Crist's and Karl Probst's Bantam BRC-40 prototype

spudfan wrote:

It was said that the Jeep was conceived as a military vehicle while the Land Rover was developed as a working vehicle that was adopted by the military.

Yes although the AgriJeep concept pre dates the Land Rover. IIRC somewhere around 1943.



Click image to enlarge

Click image to enlarge

But either way. It was the Jeep that inspired and helped to create the “Land Rover”. Not the Bantum.

blackwolf wrote:

That rather depends on what you mean by "Jeep", and no informed person can dissociate Bantam from the Jeep. The Willys MB (and the Ford GPW) were derived from the Bantam, since both Ford and Willys were given the chance to inspect the Bantam before designing any vehicles.

The story of the development of the Bantam - the original jeep - in just 49 days starting from the 17th July 1940 is remarkable, and there was a very good (primary source) account published in Automobile Quarterly Vol 14 No 4 in 1976, written by Karl K Probst, the man who designed the very first jeep. Bantam, Willys and Ford had been invited to submit prototypes for a four-wheel-drive "Scout Car" with a maximum weight of 1300lbs (about half the weight of a typical small car of the time) and a payload of 500lbs. The tender required that a working prototype had to be delivered for extensive testing to Camp Holabird just 49 days later.

Bantam was the only firm of the three that did so, delivering its prototype on time, albeit approximately 500lbs overweight. The vehicle was tested extensively (and the tests were extreme) and the vehicle did extremely well, albeit not entirely without problems. Bantam then received its first order for 75 production vehicles for field testing (eight of these vehicles also featured four-wheel steering, a feature not carried forward into subsequent production vehicles).

Whilst this was going on, both Ford and Willys engineers were given the opportunity to go over the Bantam vehicle with a fine tooth comb. Willys delivered a prototype which was rejected since it weighed 2423lbs, massively overweight. Eventually Willys on November 11th 1940 - more than six weeks after Bantam - delivered a prototype which was considered acceptable and subsequently began production of its first 1500 vehicles in January 1941. The Willys vehicle was heavily influenced by the Bantam vehicle and used many of the same components.

The weakness of Bantam (the manufacturer, not the vehicle) was its size. Both Willys and Ford had huge manufacturing capacity but Bantam did not. The US army wanted a minimum of 75 jeeps per day, and Bantam simply did not have the capacity for manufacturing on this scale. In July 1941, Willys underbid Bantam in an all-or-nothing contract for 16,000 jeeps to be supplied at a rate of 125 per day. In November 1941, Ford received an order for 15,000 jeeps using the Willys engine. The army now wanted all parts to be interchangeable, and standardised on the Willys/Ford vehicle. During WWII Willys and Ford supplied in excess of 600,000 jeeps, Bantams supplied around 3000, the majority of which were sent to Russia. After ceasing jeep production, Bantam built large numbers of trailers both for jeeps and for 2.1/2 ton trucks.

After the war Willys-Overland Motors made claims to have been the creator of the jeep, and this caused sufficient controversy for the Federal Trade Commission to begin hearings in 1943 determine the true originators of the jeep. The investigation was protracted and in 1948 the FTC issued its decision:

"In truth and in fact, the idea of creating the Jeep was originated by the American Bantam Car Co. of Butler, Ps., in collaboration with certain officers of the United States Army, and the same was developed by the American Bantam Car Co. in collaboration with said officers and not by the respondent, Willys-Overland Motors, Inc."

Willys was ordered by the FTC to "cease and desist from representing" that it had "created or designed the automotive vehicle known as the Jeep".

From an historical perspective there really is no longer any doubt nor argument. What became known as the Jeep was invented by the American Bantam Car Co. The Bantam BRC 40 is the "father" of the Willys Quad which was also built by Ford as the Ford GPW (the "W" of course standing for Willys). The Willys Quad was the "father" of the original Land-Rover, and later the Quad also evolved to become the CJ ("Civilan Jeep" series of vehicles and ultimately, much later, the Wrangler family.

The original statement with which I took issue was that "the Wrangler is the father of the Land-Rover", it wasn't a claim that the Jeep was the father of the Land-Rover, and the name "Wrangler" is not synonymous with "Jeep". I would have no issue with the second statement, but I still maintain that the the first is ridiculous and wrong.

It is also worth noting that to this day the firm with the brand-name "Jeep" does not claim to be the inventor of the Jeep.

Chicken Drumstick wrote:

That’s nice an all. But missing the point. The Wilkes did not have a Bantum. They had a WW2 Jeep. So while this might have been a history lesson for some. It is massively off topic and irrelevant to the point that was made. Re Defender and Wrangler.

The Wrangler can draw a straight line back to the Willys MB in a better way than how Land Rover currently claim the Defender has been around since 1948. Both campuses have gone through various ownership over the years too. With today’s Defender being a product of Tata.

Your original sentence, the one with which I took issue, was "The Land Rovers father the Wrangler is probably the same.". The point I have been trying, but evidently failing miserably, to make is that it is absurd to say that the "father" of the Land-Rover was the Wrangler. Maurice Wilkes died in 1963 and Spencer Wilkes in 1971, and the Wrangler did not exist until 1986. I don't know how it is possible to make the evolution of the vehicle, or the absurdity of your suggestion, any clearer.

The "father" of the Land-Rover was a Willys MB (this fact, on the basis of your last post, at least you now seem to accept). The MB undoubtedly provided the inspiration for the 80" Land-Rover, and it (or possibly another MB) provided the chassis and many parts for the centre-steer concept vehicle.

The "father" of the Wrangler was the CJ-Series of Jeeps, the father of the CJ (and the M38) was also the Willys MB.

The "father" of the Willys MB was the Willys Quad, and the "father" of the Quad was the Bantam BRC 40.

At this point I shall say no more on the subject since if I haven't made the point adequately now I shall never be able to, and I see no point in further drifting a thread about the Grenadier. Any reader who's had the patience to stick with this pointless discussion this far can make up their own mind.