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jim4244

Member Since: 13 Apr 2014
Location: Bedfordshire
Posts: 773

2007 Defender 90 Puma 2.4 CSW Zermatt Silver

Ahh... The old Flying Coffin..

4th Jun 2024 12:53pm

Ianh

Member Since: 17 Sep 2018
Location: Essex
Posts: 1981

I too would be very reticent in knowingly purchasing a defender that is subject to the recall notice, even if the catch brackets had been fitted. Noting the brackets don’t prevent the axle snapping, just endeavour to reduce the severity of the repercussions of the failure.

However if a failure did occur at speed during a lane change etc on a motorway then their is a risk that a major incident will happen. I doubt if LR have tested that scenario.

It’s one thing to risk your own health, but knowing putting loved ones I.e children etc at risk, even if you deem it a small risk is a big call. Imagine having a conversation with your wife re how much you want a defender, however this one has a known safety issue and you and the children could get injured or die, but there is only a small chance that will happen. So I decided to buy it!!!

Hence I resonate with the decision to look for a defender not subject to the recall, or buying one and replacing with a friction welded axle. Noting even if outside the recall I would (have) fitted catch brackets to a mig welded axle.

4th Jun 2024 12:53pm

blackwolf

Member Since: 03 Nov 2009
Location: South West England
Posts: 17336

2007 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 DCPU Stornoway Grey

jim4244 wrote:
... Is there anyway to find out how many failures there have been?...

No, I doubt that this info is actually available anywhere, although JLR will know how many have been reported to them (and will protect the information like no other).

I am aware through this forum and one or two other sources of about a dozen flange weld failures of this type, including at least two outside the recall range, all of MIG-welded axles. I have not heard of any weld failures of friction-welded cases, although I am aware of one or two friction-welded cases that have split along the longitudinal weld (not the flange weld) on 130" cherry-pickers.

Overall I suspect that the number of failures is small compared to the number of Defenders with potentially dodgy welds on the roads, but one failure is one too many. The catch brackets seem to work, and there is evidence of this (there is at least one reported failure on here after the brackets have been fitted and they worked exactly as designed) - in fact I have the brackets fitted to my friction-welded axle simply for peace of mind.

I don't for a moment think that walking away from a vehicle simply because it hasn't had the brackets fitted is proportional or necessary, but if I was buying such a vehicle I'd not only pay particular attention to the current state of the axle but also I'd fit the brackets as a matter of priority.

4th Jun 2024 12:55pm

jim4244

Member Since: 13 Apr 2014
Location: Bedfordshire
Posts: 773

Its more a case of the inconvenience of trying to fight with JLR for any form of recompense and then having to foot the bill and source a new axle.

Obviously this would only be the the case if you survived the end of the axle detaching in the first place...

Jim

4th Jun 2024 12:56pm

blackwolf

Member Since: 03 Nov 2009
Location: South West England
Posts: 17336

Ianh wrote:
I too would be very reticent in knowingly purchasing a defender that is subject to the recall notice, even if the catch brackets had been fitted. Noting the brackets don’t prevent the axle snapping, just endeavour to reduce the severity of the repercussions of the failure.

However if a failure did occur at speed during a lane change etc on a motorway then their is a risk that a major incident will happen. I doubt if LR have tested that scenario.

I think that it is unlikely you would even know that the weld had cracked with the brackets fitted unless you notice the tell-tale oil leak. The brackets will prevent the flange detaching from the axle, and it is extremely unlikely that any difference in handling would be noticeable. Eventually however, if you don't spot the leak, most of the axle oil will leak out and one day the diff will break and possibly seize the axle, but that is going to happen anyway one day since they all do in the end, and is only a matter of time on a 110 or 130 with any type of axle case.

If the axle is not fitted with catch brackets and the weld fails it is an entirely different situation, and I cannot really understand how it is that none of the incidents we know about yet have resulted in a fatality, so far everyone has been incredibly lucky (or I suppose hasn't lived to report the incident). It is an extremely dangerous fault and it is still shocking that JLR has been and continues to be as nonchalant about it as it has.

4th Jun 2024 1:31pm

TexasRover

Member Since: 24 Nov 2022
Location: Paris
Posts: 1028

2002 Defender 110 Td5 DCPU Chawton White

Ianh wrote:

It’s one thing to risk your own health, but knowing putting loved ones I.e children etc at risk, even if you deem it a small risk is a big call. Imagine having a conversation with your wife re how much you want a defender, however this one has a known safety issue and you and the children could get injured or die, but there is only a small chance that will happen. So I decided to buy it!!!

Hence I resonate with the decision to look for a defender not subject to the recall, or buying one and replacing with a friction welded axle. Noting even if outside the recall I would (have) fitted catch brackets to a mig welded axle.

I think this is very much a lawyer approach to life, standing in the witness box etc. If you want to avoid the risk of your children getting injured and die, don't take them with you in your defender period. By modern standards is a death trap "even if you deem it a small risk is a big call", nevermind the axle issue - which is just one of the many safety issues.

Then you can say to your wife: "well its a good thing they were not in our defender when the accident happened."

4th Jun 2024 1:52pm

Ianh

Member Since: 17 Sep 2018
Location: Essex
Posts: 1981

It’s not a lawyer based approach, it’s a statistical based approach, with an element of Darwinism

4th Jun 2024 3:48pm

jst

Member Since: 14 Jan 2008
Location: Taunton
Posts: 8002

2011 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 USW Stornoway Grey

Are lo ger swivel hous8ng bolts used for this mod? Cheers

James
110 2012 XS Utility
130 2011 M57 bespoke Camper
90 2010 Hardtop
90 M57 1988 Hardtop

5th Jun 2024 9:34pm

Dinnu

Member Since: 24 Dec 2019
Location: Lija
Posts: 3406

2012 Defender 90 Puma 2.2 CSW Santorini Black

If your question is if the lower swivel ball bolts are used....
Its a yes and a no at the same time. The swivel ball bolts are not disturbed to install or remove the catch brackets, but the catch brackets pit over and in the lower 3 bolt heads for better locking. 1988 90 Hard Top, 19J Diesel Turbo, Shire Blue - Restoration ongoing
2012 90 CSW, 2.2TDCI, Santorini Black

6th Jun 2024 5:41am

jst

Member Since: 14 Jan 2008
Location: Taunton
Posts: 8002

Sorry is was are the longer swivel to a axle bolts needed. But the answer must be no as I doubt they would fit in. Cheers

James
110 2012 XS Utility
130 2011 M57 bespoke Camper
90 2010 Hardtop
90 M57 1988 Hardtop

6th Jun 2024 12:29pm

blackwolf

Member Since: 03 Nov 2009
Location: South West England
Posts: 17336

The answer is no, not required. The only parts required are the brackets themselves (unless the two bolts holding the radius arms to the axles on each side are in such poor condition that they cannot be reused, which which case your vehicle is already in a dangerous condition). These are the only fittings which need to be disturbed during the fitting of the brackets.

6th Jun 2024 12:45pm

jst

Member Since: 14 Jan 2008
Location: Taunton
Posts: 8002

Cheers. Cheers

James
110 2012 XS Utility
130 2011 M57 bespoke Camper
90 2010 Hardtop
90 M57 1988 Hardtop

6th Jun 2024 4:00pm

Julie

Member Since: 07 Oct 2017
Location: Nantes
Posts: 472

2012 Defender 110 Puma 2.2 SW Keswick Green

Quote:

I think that it is unlikely you would even know that the weld had cracked with the brackets fitted unless you notice the tell-tale oil leak. The brackets will prevent the flange detaching from the axle, and it is extremely unlikely that any difference in handling would be noticeable. Eventually however, if you don't spot the leak, most of the axle oil will leak out and one day the diff will break and possibly seize the axle, but that is going to happen anyway one day since they all do in the end, and is only a matter of time on a 110 or 130 with any type of axle case.
.

Having received m'y "invitation" from JLR a few weeks ago, I like this description of a "worst case scénario" with brackets mounted.

The welds do look great (no corrosion, impurity, cracks, bad properties, etc.) they're flush and smooth (december 2012) But I do not have thé equipment for professional scans.

I tow a sail boat (3.5 tons) sometimes. So I'm just wondering if those little brackets really do fit flush?? Even small mouvements were counter productive and lead to loss of stability and control. Are thèse brackets pre-tensioned ?

13th Jun 2024 6:37pm

spudfan

Member Since: 10 Sep 2007
Location: Co Donegal
Posts: 4646

Boeing to JLR "We are having a little bother with some of our planes and we were wondering if you could suggest a quick fix for us." 1982 88" 2.25 diesel
1992 110 200tdi csw -Zikali
2008 110 2.4 tdci csw-Zulu
2011 110 2.4 tdci csw-Masai

14th Jun 2024 10:22pm

Dinnu

Member Since: 24 Dec 2019
Location: Lija
Posts: 3406

[quote="Julie"]

Quote:

So I'm just wondering if those little brackets really do fit flush?? Even small mouvements were counter productive and lead to loss of stability and control. Are thèse brackets pre-tensioned ?

I had JLR install my brackets in the latest recall update so I do not know how much of a gap, if any remains between the brackets and the radius arm brackets when they are offered to the axle. However, when I view mine, there seems to be no gap between the brackets and the swivel bolts.

Given that there is only 1 reported failure of an axle with brackets might suggest that the brackets are pulling on the swivels, but this is more sort of a guess. 1988 90 Hard Top, 19J Diesel Turbo, Shire Blue - Restoration ongoing
2012 90 CSW, 2.2TDCI, Santorini Black

15th Jun 2024 6:36am

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