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lightning



Member Since: 23 Apr 2009
Location: High Peak, Derbyshire
Posts: 2690

United Kingdom 
"just like the New Defender is not a real Defender."

ln your opinion !
Have you owned one and actually used it rather than just read the reviews from various youtube "experts" ?
Post #1030428 3rd Apr 2024 8:42pm
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spudfan



Member Since: 10 Sep 2007
Location: Co Donegal
Posts: 4636

Ireland 
That is not my opinion, I phrased it badly. I should have said
In certain people's eyes that does not make the New Land Cruiser a real Land Cruiser just like the New Defender is not a real Defender in certain people's eyes. 1982 88" 2.25 diesel
1992 110 200tdi csw -Zikali
2008 110 2.4 tdci csw-Zulu
2011 110 2.4 tdci csw-Masai
Post #1030429 3rd Apr 2024 9:02pm
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Zed



Member Since: 07 Oct 2017
Location: In the woods
Posts: 3244

United Kingdom 2010 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 XS CSW Santorini Black
TexasRover wrote:
lightning wrote:
l wouldn't call the new Land Cruiser "fleeting" it's got a heritage going back decades.

That looks a lovely vehicle and l actually think it may look better then the Defender. Let's see if the £50,000 start price materialises. The new Defender was supposed to start at £44,000 and the Grenadier lead-in price was £50,000.

lf the Land Cruiser is £50,000 it's likely going to take sales from Land Rover and lneos.


The Land Cruiser legacy is simply being milked, just like LR is doing with the Defender. They are shifting the target audience to maximize sales. I am sure it's a fine vehicle, like pretty much every vehicle on the market today. With 50k there are plenty options.

The Grenadier though IS different; it is appealing to (a shrinking) hard core adventure/offroad/utilitarian market. I really hope they survive because on paper it's not an attractive proposition, everything is against them, tax, emissions, regulations, etc. But I would want one because it's different, just like my Defender is different.

You would buy a Toyota Prada because it's a sensible, safe and a little boring and because your wife would approve. Everyone knows that the guy driving a Grenadier didn't ask his wife if she agrees. He just bought it because he wanted one.

The Toyota will come and go, the Grenadier will probably be just a one off affair going into the history books.

The Land Cruiser doesn’t look like a branding exercise to me, it looks worthy of the name. Definitely a 4x4 and not a lifestyle SUV. WARNING.
This post may contain sarcasm.
Post #1030431 3rd Apr 2024 9:23pm
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lightning



Member Since: 23 Apr 2009
Location: High Peak, Derbyshire
Posts: 2690

United Kingdom 
spudfan wrote:
That is not my opinion, I phrased it badly. I should have said
In certain people's eyes that does not make the New Land Cruiser a real Land Cruiser just like the New Defender is not a real Defender in certain people's eyes.


Ah okay

I do agree that the Grenadier is more of a "classic" Defender than the new Defender. What a shame LR wouldn't sell the tooling for the old Defender to lneos. Then it would have been interesting to see what lneos came up with.
Post #1030459 4th Apr 2024 8:50am
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defender9



Member Since: 12 Mar 2016
Location: Fylde Coast
Posts: 1629

United Kingdom 2015 Defender 90 Puma 2.2 SW Keswick Green
Chris86 wrote:
Aside from G-Class (which is epic........)

The new LC is the first 4x4 I have been really excited about for a while- I saw the specs for it, then the photoshoots last year and it's just smashed the net on the wide open goal Defender Left, and also the Grenadier left to an extent.

New Defender is too tech heavy for me, my initial impression having sat in a few Grenadiers and looked over them extensively (although I have yet to drive one) is that it's too many compromises for such a high price.

New LC is built by a company with a reputation for screwing vehicles together well, proper dealer support both Europe and worldwide if needed- can't wait to see the entry level specs & commercial variant if they do one.

I think it's got massive potential, and like others have mentioned both LR and Ineos ought to be worried.

I'll be trying to get my hands on one for a drive, who knows......if it ticked all the right boxes in a year or two one might even replace the 110 and the pickup!

Chris


Totally agree. I run a 27 year old Land Cruiser Colorado ( Prado) as a daily, it’s the light duty LC compared to the Amazon or the even more heavy duty 70 Series. I have had 2 new Defenders over the years and still have an old Series LR and a RRC but the LC has been faultless apart from the original starter motor playing up which I got repaired. I value reliability and vehicles which are well screwed together something unfortunately the Defenders did not have. I bought the LC just to see what they were like after selling my last Defender and given the LC was 20 years older than the Defender it was still better to drive and better screwed together. I’m really tempted by the new LC as long as it’s not overpriced but then again my old LC just does everything I need it to do. It gets serviced every year and is probably the only vehicle I have owned where I get into it and feel I could drive anywhere without issue.
Post #1030463 4th Apr 2024 9:52am
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Chicken Drumstick



Member Since: 17 Aug 2020
Location: Near MK
Posts: 707

United Kingdom 
spudfan wrote:

The new model is aimed at a different buying public and will probably compete with the New Defender.
The Grenadier is an outlier here. People in the modern SUV market will not buy it as it will seem to them as an old fashioned thing lacking in the creature comforts they desire.

Curious, but what creature comforts do you think the Grenadier is really lacking? I thought it seemed pretty well specced tbh.
Post #1030479 4th Apr 2024 11:53am
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Chicken Drumstick



Member Since: 17 Aug 2020
Location: Near MK
Posts: 707

United Kingdom 
soccerlaw wrote:
Really wanted to like the Grenadier but just feels like it’s slightly off… proper engine and a bit more rugged and they could have had a real winner. Feels like a defender knock off versus knocking off the defender.

What is your definition of a proper engine? Bear in mind while I personally love push rod V8's, they are not a mainstream engine in most world markets and most certainly not in Europe. Also not sure how it could be more rugged as a production vehicle. What isn't rugged enough for you?
Post #1030480 4th Apr 2024 11:54am
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Chicken Drumstick



Member Since: 17 Aug 2020
Location: Near MK
Posts: 707

United Kingdom 
lightning wrote:
"just like the New Defender is not a real Defender."

ln your opinion !
Have you owned one and actually used it rather than just read the reviews from various youtube "experts" ?

I like the vehicle, but it is only a Defender in name. Design, features, function, market place, ability it is no more a "Defender" than a Range Rover is or even a Shogun. e.g. where is the chassis cab version, the pickup, the full tilt? I t doesn't even have flat wing tops or round headlights!

Doesn't really matter if you own a new one or not. Everything you use your new Defender for a classic Range Rover, Disco 4, L494 RRS or even a 4th Gen Shogun could do. But there are many things the old Defender can do that you simply can't do with the new model.
Post #1030482 4th Apr 2024 12:09pm
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spudfan



Member Since: 10 Sep 2007
Location: Co Donegal
Posts: 4636

Ireland 
Chicken Drumstick wrote:
spudfan wrote:

The new model is aimed at a different buying public and will probably compete with the New Defender.
The Grenadier is an outlier here. People in the modern SUV market will not buy it as it will seem to them as an old fashioned thing lacking in the creature comforts they desire.

Curious, but what creature comforts do you think the Grenadier is really lacking? I thought it seemed pretty well specced tbh.

I do not think the Grenadier is biased as much towards on road use as a standard SUV that people seem to like. I have no issue with live beam axles as I drive a Defender. 1982 88" 2.25 diesel
1992 110 200tdi csw -Zikali
2008 110 2.4 tdci csw-Zulu
2011 110 2.4 tdci csw-Masai
Post #1030483 4th Apr 2024 12:17pm
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lightning



Member Since: 23 Apr 2009
Location: High Peak, Derbyshire
Posts: 2690

United Kingdom 
Chicken Drumstick wrote:
lightning wrote:
"just like the New Defender is not a real Defender."

ln your opinion !
Have you owned one and actually used it rather than just read the reviews from various youtube "experts" ?

I like the vehicle, but it is only a Defender in name. Design, features, function, market place, ability it is no more a "Defender" than a Range Rover is or even a Shogun. e.g. where is the chassis cab version, the pickup, the full tilt? I t doesn't even have flat wing tops or round headlights!

Doesn't really matter if you own a new one or not. Everything you use your new Defender for a classic Range Rover, Disco 4, L494 RRS or even a 4th Gen Shogun could do. But there are many things the old Defender can do that you simply can't do with the new model.


But presumably you can with a Grenadier?

lf the Grenadier had been available in "Commercial" form for tax purposes l would have one on my drive. l had a Grenadier order for over 12 months but had to cancel as it wasn't a Commercial Vehicle in the eyes of HMRC.

I wonder how the new Land Cruiser Commercial version will fare in this regard. If LR got the Defender Commercial classed as such by HMRC (despite the payload being under 1,000kg) then l am sure Toyota will be able to.

I was in contact with lneos on this subject but the U.K. "Commercial" market was not a priority to them. They are concentrating more on "world markets"
Post #1030485 4th Apr 2024 12:27pm
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Ianb



Member Since: 25 Oct 2023
Location: Devon
Posts: 378

United Kingdom 1998 Defender 110 300 Tdi HT Alaska White
103 pages of discussion and still no general agreement across the board Laughing

Makes for interesting reading though. Definitely clear to see that people are approaching this from many different personal directions and that's dictating their final view on it all. The Yeti - 110 Camper https://www.defender2.net/forum/topic90308.html
Youtube - https://www.youtube.com/@YetitheDefender
Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/yetithedefender/
Post #1030501 4th Apr 2024 3:47pm
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spudfan



Member Since: 10 Sep 2007
Location: Co Donegal
Posts: 4636

Ireland 
If Land Rover had introduced this vehicle as it is now as a replacement for the Defender, how do you think it would have been received? 1982 88" 2.25 diesel
1992 110 200tdi csw -Zikali
2008 110 2.4 tdci csw-Zulu
2011 110 2.4 tdci csw-Masai
Post #1030508 4th Apr 2024 4:29pm
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blackwolf



Member Since: 03 Nov 2009
Location: South West England
Posts: 17310

United Kingdom 2007 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 DCPU Stornoway Grey
spudfan wrote:
If Land Rover had introduced this vehicle as it is now as a replacement for the Defender, how do you think it would have been received?.


Probably much the same as it has been. Those who bizarrely think the old Defender was an "SUV" would hate it, those who appreciated the old Defender for what is was would kind of like it but moan that it's too expensive, only has an auto box, doesn't leak enough, and of course it's not a proper engine because it has an ECU and the last proper engine was the 200TDi. Rolling with laughter
Post #1030511 4th Apr 2024 4:39pm
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Ianb



Member Since: 25 Oct 2023
Location: Devon
Posts: 378

United Kingdom 1998 Defender 110 300 Tdi HT Alaska White
I think it'd be met with a similar level of criticisms as the "Old D v New D".

I'm sure there is somewhere a Series vs everyone else crowd as well as a Defender vs Puma Defender... but likely less so than "old v new".

I would say had LR released the Grenadier as the "new defender" there would certainly be a respectable amount of recognition on it's physical similarities, but I can only assume the gadgets and gizmos and the lack of manual transmission would garner dislike from purists. The Yeti - 110 Camper https://www.defender2.net/forum/topic90308.html
Youtube - https://www.youtube.com/@YetitheDefender
Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/yetithedefender/
Post #1030513 4th Apr 2024 4:46pm
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Rashers



Member Since: 21 Jun 2015
Location: Norfolk
Posts: 3479

United Kingdom 2014 Defender 110 Puma 2.2 USW Corris Grey
Nicely put blackwolf. I think you have summed it up rather nicely Thumbs Up

I don't think Land Rover stood a chance. The new vehicle was never going to be everything to everyone. Land Rover as a company were moving (or let's be honest, had moved) their cars to the 'luxury' end of the market. Whatever they produced was not going to be an 'old Defender' style vehicle (some may say, thank God!)

An Ineos Grenadier or Toyota Land Cruiser vehicle, if produced to replace the Defender would still have managed "103 pages of discussion and still no general arrangement across the board" to steal Ianb's words Rolling with laughter

What I would say in Land Rover's defence, they have produced a very popular vehicle which is selling very well.

It has been said on here many many times, maybe they would have been better killing off the name and calling their new vehicle a Discovery?
Post #1030514 4th Apr 2024 4:52pm
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