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| LandRoverAnorak Member Since: 17 Jul 2011 Location: Surrey Posts: 11324  
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That's what I said yesterday  Darren
110 USW BUILD THREAD - EXPEDITION TRAILER - 200tdi 90 BUILD THREAD - SANKEY TRAILER - IG@landroveranorak "You came in that thing? You're braver than I thought!" - Princess Leia |
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6th Oct 2017 10:22am |
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| leeds Member Since: 28 Dec 2009 Location: West Yorkshire Posts: 8582
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On the approval markings on driving lights there is a figure for the peak beam reference number and the maximum allowable switched on the road is 100. That light bar has a reference number of 37.5, whereas the two spots have a reference number of 20 each, the headlights I am proposing to use have a reference number of 25 each. So light bar and headlights will give a total of 87.5 so legal. Two spots and headlights is 90 so legal. Light bar, two spots and headlights combined would be 127.5 so exceed 100 so illegal. There is a maximum number of candela that you are allowed on driving lights and sorry I can not remember that figure. If any light is claimed to be E marked and just has an E + number in a circle without the other required information that makes up the approval marking, i.e. lamp function code, approval number, regulation/amendment number, RHD/LHT markings then it is a fake, non genuine and illegal to use on the road. Headlights which just have DOT, SAE an E + number in a circle are NOT road legal as they are not APPROVED for road use! Brendan |
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6th Oct 2017 11:28am |
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| LandRoverAnorak Member Since: 17 Jul 2011 Location: Surrey Posts: 11324
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I've seen this peak beam limit mentioned before but can't find any reference to it in the lighting regs. Have you got a reference by any chance, Brendan? Darren
110 USW BUILD THREAD - EXPEDITION TRAILER - 200tdi 90 BUILD THREAD - SANKEY TRAILER - IG@landroveranorak "You came in that thing? You're braver than I thought!" - Princess Leia |
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6th Oct 2017 11:39am |
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| blackwolf Member Since: 03 Nov 2009 Location: South West England Posts: 17598 
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That's what I was wondering. I know that there is a limit for obligatory front lights, but I was unaware of any limit for non-obligatory lights.
Since we became entangled in Europe the regs have been a nightmare to keep up with.  |
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6th Oct 2017 12:33pm |
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| leeds Member Since: 28 Dec 2009 Location: West Yorkshire Posts: 8582
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Vehicle Lighting Regulations do not mention peak beam reference number.
The UK is a signatory to the Vehicle Harmonisation regulations or the UN ECE regulations. The Vehicle Lighting Regulations states basically that all vehicle obligatory lights have to show an Approval Mark What actually constitutes an approval mark is defined in the various UN ECE regulations which covers many different aspects of a vehicle. It is nothing to do with Europe or Brexit the clue is in the letters UN. A vehicle light approval mark consists of several different parts. One part consists of an E + number in a circle. The number in a circle refers to the country which has done the approval. However without the actual approval number, light function code, regulation/amendment number, RHD/LHT arrow etc it is NOT a genuine approval number. If a headlight is just marked DOT, SAE, E + number in a circle, it is NOT approved for road use and is ILLEGAL to use on the road. Under section 76(?) of the Road Traffic Act it is an offence to supply, fit or use a defective item on a road going vehicle. I would argue that use of a non approved item where there is a legal requirement to use an approved item that item is defective! Taken from here an explanation of peak beam intensity reference number
Now this is slightly out of date as the total for the reference number has been increased to 100 This increase is buried in the amendments of the UN ECE regulations and off the top of my head I can not remember the actual amendment. Optional or additional headlights etc whilst they are not legally obligatory lights, to be legal for road use they must conform to the UN ECE regulations. HTH Brendan |
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6th Oct 2017 2:13pm |
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| LandRoverAnorak Member Since: 17 Jul 2011 Location: Surrey Posts: 11324
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Hmm, ok. I get that all lights for road use must display the approved mark and that that mark includes more than just the 'E' in a circle. However, I don't think that our regulations have adopted the peak beam intensity limit for optional lights. This part of the text you've quoted implies that countries must specifically state that limit to be the legal maximum:
However, the only measure of output in our regulations is Watts and they make it clear that there are no limits for optional lighting. I imagine that it's like many European directives, where each country interprets them to suit their own conditions and requirements. Darren 110 USW BUILD THREAD - EXPEDITION TRAILER - 200tdi 90 BUILD THREAD - SANKEY TRAILER - IG@landroveranorak "You came in that thing? You're braver than I thought!" - Princess Leia |
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6th Oct 2017 2:48pm |
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| leeds Member Since: 28 Dec 2009 Location: West Yorkshire Posts: 8582
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Hi LRA, the Vehicle Lighting Regulations (VLR) are quite old these days and they do not refer to HID, LED, or Laser light sources in vehicle lights. Please forget about watts when it comes to vehicle lights as that has little to do with actual light output. That is a very rapidly changing field.
The important part of the VLR with regards to obligatory headlights and optional headlights is
OK there are certain exceptions on historic basis etc but lets not go into exceptions as they do not apply to reasonably modern vehicles The approval marks for obligatory lights are set out in various UN ECE Vehicle Harmonisation rules The Vehicle Harmonisation programme?
There is a vast number of regulations and they are update on a regular basis The UK is a signatory to this UN forum along with many other countries. Basically if one country approves a motor vehicle item then it is acceptable in all other signatory countries. The requirements to get an approval mark is set out in great details in the relevant regulations. Under VLR optional driving lights need an approval mark. This mark is set out in the UN regulations which states that the peak beam intensity reference number is included. The fact that the Peak Beam Intensity Reference number is not mentioned in the VLR is irrelevant. You can not get a modern headlight approval mark without it and that is a legal requirement Now UN ECE R 48 6.1.9
This is why I said certain combinations of lights would be illegal [quote] The maximum intensity (IM) of the driving beam expressed in thousands of candelas shall be calculated by the formula: IM = 0.625 EM 6.3.3.1.2. The reference mark (I' M) of this maximum intensity, referred to in paragraph 4.2.2.7. above, shall be obtained by the ratio: I' I 3 M 0.208 E M = = M This value shall be rounded off to the value 7.5 - 10 - 12.5 - 17.5 - 20 - 25 - 27.5 - 30 - 37.5 - 40 - 45 - 50. Now UN ECE states [quote] Sorry the equation does not transfer over correctly when copied and paste. I also do not know how to do equations on this forum. Yes I know it is boring stuff. Also this partially why I say a lot of lights offered for sale in the UK are fake/illegal as they do not carry the correct approval markings Brendan |
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6th Oct 2017 8:19pm |
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| LandRoverAnorak Member Since: 17 Jul 2011 Location: Surrey Posts: 11324
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Thanks for the reference. I've just had a read through R48 and it is exactly how you've described. However, the aggregate maximum intensity limit only applies to 'main beam headlights' and the earlier clauses in that regulation (6.1) give a specific description of what they are and how there can either be two or four depending on vehicle class. It doesn't, however, apply to optional main beam lights. If it did then single LED light bars wouldn't comply under any circumstances as it states that you can only have either two or four - no odd numbers. This suggests that optional lights may not even need to be E marked, although I haven't read enough to be able to categorically confirm that.
As far as I can see, the position of our own lighting regs stands, in that you can have as many optional main beam lights as you like, of whatever power, as long as they automatically extinguish with the obligatory main beam lights. For anybody else who feels inclined to have a read and see if I've missed something then the text of the regulation can be found here: https://www.unece.org/fileadmin/DAM/trans/...048r9e.pdf Darren 110 USW BUILD THREAD - EXPEDITION TRAILER - 200tdi 90 BUILD THREAD - SANKEY TRAILER - IG@landroveranorak "You came in that thing? You're braver than I thought!" - Princess Leia |
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6th Oct 2017 9:21pm |
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| custom90 Member Since: 21 Jan 2010 Location: South West, England. Posts: 20612
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^^^^ This sounds very accurate to me.
The main concentration in my opinion when it comes to law emphasises on obligatory lighting for safety reasons. Most but not all non obligatory lighting so long as sensibly placed, positioned, directed and correct colour. With usable safe switching, which doesn't interfere in any way with standard lighting colours and orientation is generally okay. Reversing lights are a similar thing too with its complications. Saying all this, I'm only generally speaking and haven't studied regs. I think most members here are more aware of regs and issues than any of the powers that be. The same goes for Greenlanes, there was a video recently I saw online where a Police officer was trying to tell a road legal biker he cannot and should not ride down a Byway open to all trafic. The biker explained everything and he agreed and said I learnt something new,  Chillin In The Backwoods🇬🇧🇺🇸
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6th Oct 2017 9:52pm |
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| leeds Member Since: 28 Dec 2009 Location: West Yorkshire Posts: 8582
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LRA, if you look at VLR
Yes there is no restriction on the number of optional main beam headlamps. However they must conform to paragraph 5
So optional main beam headlamps must have an approval mark Hence they require all the correct markings on them. Now IF optional main beam lamps be they light bars or spot lights be they filament or LED did NOT require an approval mark, why do reputable light makers such as Nolden, Vision X, Lazer, Rigid Industries etc bother to go to the trouble and expense of getting an approval mark? Why do the approval centres award approval marks if they are not required? OK there is an exception if your vehicle was first used before 1991, but lets not go down the route of exceptions but keep to the main bulk of vehicles we drive. Now 6.1.9.1
No mention of obligatory or optional main beam. The important wording is switched on simultaneously. OK you could argue that optional main beam lights could be switched on after the obligatory main beam lamps are switched on as long as the optional main beam lamps were switched OFF simultaneously with the obligatory main beam lamps. Now I am sure that a lawyer could read the minute details of the various sub sections of the different UNECE regulations, CLR, RTA etc to try and give a clear definitive opinion. One of the more knowledgeable lighting people I know just said forward lighting maximum light output is a total of 100 of the reference number Brendan |
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6th Oct 2017 9:55pm |
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| LandRoverAnorak Member Since: 17 Jul 2011 Location: Surrey Posts: 11324
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Sorry, I disagree. The important wording in this context is 'main-beam headlights' which, as I said, are clearly defined earlier in the regulation. As you say, there is no mention of optional lights, so how can something so specifically worded apply to them? If it does apply to optional lights, how can LED lightbars ever be legal? Darren
110 USW BUILD THREAD - EXPEDITION TRAILER - 200tdi 90 BUILD THREAD - SANKEY TRAILER - IG@landroveranorak "You came in that thing? You're braver than I thought!" - Princess Leia |
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7th Oct 2017 8:29am |
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| leeds Member Since: 28 Dec 2009 Location: West Yorkshire Posts: 8582
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How can LED lightbars be legal??
VLR states clearly that Optional Main Beam Headlamps should carry an approval mark or a British Standard Mark Now I assume that the expression approval mark does include an Approval Mark issued under the Vehicle Harmonisation Regulations or the UN ECE regulations. Now the markings on the LED lightbar I showed earlier shows it is approved as class B main beam headlamp. Therefore as long as the lightbar is wired up correctly and the total Peak Beam Reference number does not exceed 100 it is perfectly legal. Now that lightbar has some other markings on and I am guessing are USA approval markings so is road legal in theUS I am unaware of any LED lightbars which are a dipped and main beam headlamp. For lights to be road legal they need a genuine approval mark which means the country code PLUS the approval number, light function code and other information. When a light seller states that the lights are 'E marked' please check that it is a GENUINE approval mark and that it consists of more then the country code! Brendan |
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7th Oct 2017 7:40pm |
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| LandRoverAnorak Member Since: 17 Jul 2011 Location: Surrey Posts: 11324
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Brendan, you're missing the point. It was rhetorical question to illustrate that the regulation that we've been discussing can't possibly apply to optional lights as it only allows for 'main beam headlights' in either twos of fours. If it were to apply to optional lights too, then a single LED light bar between two regular headlights would be illegal as that would make three, which is clearly nonsense. Darren
110 USW BUILD THREAD - EXPEDITION TRAILER - 200tdi 90 BUILD THREAD - SANKEY TRAILER - IG@landroveranorak "You came in that thing? You're braver than I thought!" - Princess Leia |
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7th Oct 2017 8:05pm |
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| leeds Member Since: 28 Dec 2009 Location: West Yorkshire Posts: 8582
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With main beam headlights there are obligatory main beam headlights ones and optional main beam headlights ones.
There is a limit on the number of obligatory headlights however there is no limit on the number of optional main beam headlights. There are also at least two different classes of main beam lights!
Paragraph 7, colour white or yellow Paragraph 10, Main beam must be able to go to dip or switch off. Paragraph 12a Must be able to adjust direction when stationary. Paragraph 5 They must have an approval mark Correctly approved optional main beam lights are road legal if wired in correctly Otherwise many light manufacturers are breaking the law, such as Nolden, Lazer Lamp, JW Speaker, Vision X etc are breaking the law along with any motor manufacturer who includes optional main beam lights. Try RTA section 76! Brendan |
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7th Oct 2017 9:13pm |
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