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Cupboard

Member Since: 21 Mar 2014
Location: Suffolk
Posts: 2971

2011 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 HT Corris Grey

The kerb weight is ULW plus driver and some fuel, so you can work back to ULW from the listed kerb weight figure.
75kg "average" driver, 60kg fuel (I think it's 90% of a tank, something like that) plus a bit for oil... you're looking at something like 150kg.

Someone on the forum has a rather more specific table floating around...

19th Aug 2016 1:44pm

blackwolf

Member Since: 03 Nov 2009
Location: South West England
Posts: 17354

2007 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 DCPU Stornoway Grey

Which weight is critical depends upon which specific piece of legislation applies. In the case of determining whether or not a vehicle is a Dual Purpose Vehicle, the relevent weight is the unladen weight.

The unladen weight is not required to be recorded anywhere, hence much of the confusion.

Landrover quote a "kerb weight", which is generally accepted as being the weight of an empty vehicle in a condition ready to drive off. Traditionally ULW does not include accessories, fluids, nor a driver, whilst the KW does.

Landrover does provide kerb weight figures and used to say that these were based upon the unladen weight plus a 75kg driver plus a 90% full tank of fuel, but more recently have started to say a full tank of fuel rather than 90%. Confusingly Landrover still quotes exactly the same actual figures, despite now purporting to have an extra 10% of fuel on board! It is almost certain that LR has goofed and actually does mean a 70% tank and has simply omitted the "90%" that should have preceded the word "full", since this is now the standard EU definition (see below).

Note that other legislation may refer to other weights, the Road Vehicles (Construction & Use) Regulations 1986 (as amended) however specifically refer to unladen weight as defined therein.

In recent years a plethora of different EU-originated terms have appeared, such as Mass In Service. MIS is defined by European Directive 95/48/EC as the unladen weight plus 75kg driver and a 90% fuel payload, and is therefore the same as was generally quoted as kerb weight (the meaning of the term kerb weight was not actually defined anywhere, so although this definition was a standard, is was de facto rather than de jure).

I think that in reality accurate speed enforcement based on vehicle type is almost impossible to implement at present (certainly impossible by automated enforcement) and generally therefore Police forces will regard all Defenders, double cab pickups, and other DPV-like vehicles as DPVs unless they know for a fact that they are not. The situation is further complicated now by the fact that many manufacturers now produce passenger versions of popular vans, such as the Transit and Vito, where there is a second row of seats (with side windows) behind the driver, which is likely to result in these falling into the DPV category as well.

It is a real muddle !

19th Aug 2016 2:36pm

ericvv

Member Since: 02 Jun 2011
Location: Near the Jet d'Eau
Posts: 5816

2009 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 SVX Station Wagon Santorini Black

ken wrote:
Agreed BW however that search facility appears to be a dark art for some

Darker for some than for others...

You never actually own a Defender. You merely look after it for the next generation.
http://youtu.be/yVRlSsJwD0o
https://youtu.be/vmPr3oTHndg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_GtzTT9Pdl0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABqKPz28e6A
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLZ49Jce_n0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XvAsz_ilQYU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8tMHiX9lSw
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dxwjPuHIV7I
https://vimeo.com/201482507
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSixqL0iyHw

19th Aug 2016 3:36pm

mse

Member Since: 06 Apr 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 5035

2016 Defender 110 Puma 2.2 XS CSW Scotia Grey

Quote:
The important thing, and what isn't clear to me, is what weight the authorities use when conducting enforcement. As far as I know the ULW isn't recorded anywhere is it? The V5 lists the mass in service, is that the same as ULW? Your very unlikely to be weighed as a result of a speed check, so what limit is applied to vehicles that are in this zone very close to the threshold? A guess would be that the mass in service is used, and if you think the ULW is different you'd have to argue it in court.

This is often a topic of debate in motorhome forums.

The unladen weight is of interest because its sets the speed limits in the UK whereas when you go to europe its the plated weigh eg 3.5t...where this is interesting (in motorhome world) you could take a motorhome with an unladen weight of 2t in the UK and do 70 but its plated as 4.25t so in europe its a lower speed limit!

Quote:
I think that in reality accurate speed enforcement based on vehicle type is almost impossible to implement at present

Rather interestingly i read an article last month about the roll out of variable vehicle speed enforcement on cameras and speed vans...basically most (not all) speed cameras current are set to the road limit and are "dumb" so dont know your vehicle type. What they

are developing is one that checks your vehicle type to speed and then acts accordingly. Apparently its live in some areas now! Mike

19th Aug 2016 4:54pm

22900013A

Member Since: 23 Dec 2010
Location: Oxfordshire
Posts: 3149

2011 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 USW Keswick Green

I do wonder where our works Defenders come in, as they of course have winches, big roof rack, internal racking, night heater, massive mud tyres etc all fitted *before* you load them up with tools and kit. Quite probably the unladed weight will be over the 2040KG limit stated. I think with cherrypickers it is probably even more of a grey area. Some are registered as plant for example...others are actually quite light but I think they are still something like 2500KG before you add any payload...

I suspect they actually are subject to lower limits, but I don't think I have ever seen anyone comply with those limits in any kind of van, pickup or 4x4... 2011 110 USW
1973 Series III 1-Ton
1972 Series III 1-Ton Cherrypicker
1969 IIA 1-Ton
1966 IIA 88"

19th Aug 2016 5:18pm

blackwolf

Member Since: 03 Nov 2009
Location: South West England
Posts: 17354

mse wrote:
...Rather interestingly i read an article last month about the roll out of variable vehicle speed enforcement on cameras and speed vans...basically most (not all) speed cameras current are set to the road limit and are "dumb" so dont know your vehicle type. What they are developing is one that checks your vehicle type to speed and then acts accordingly. Apparently its live in some areas now!

Where was the article?

The problem with this is that some things are possible and some are not. There have for years been cameras which can differentiate between HGVs and non-HGVs, for example, based on their radar signature. However it is not even now possible to differentiate between a vehicle which is a DPV and a similar one which is not by any means other than a VRN look-up (because visually there is no difference). In order for this to work, there has to be a record on someone's database that contains some information that allows a determination to be made. At present, neither the ULW nor the vehicle's C&U classification is recorded anywhere, so this cannot happen. It may be in the future this information is recorded, but it isn't now and I am not aware of any plans for it to be recorded. If it does come about it is more likely that it will be recorded for new vehicles rather than retrospectively.

There is also a massive data overhead with any VRN look-up system, but with the rapid technological advance in networkmtechnologies this is no longer such an issue.

So whilst there is no doubt that there are systems which can differentiate between some vehicle types, I do not believe that there are any which can identify a DPV Defender from a non-DPV Defender.

19th Aug 2016 6:25pm

blackwolf

Member Since: 03 Nov 2009
Location: South West England
Posts: 17354

22900013A wrote:
...
I suspect they actually are subject to lower limits, but I don't think I have ever seen anyone comply with those limits in any kind of van, pickup or 4x4...

I am sure you're right, and such a vehicle (obviously a work vehicle) is more likely to be pulled in.

I also agree about compliance, it is incredibly rare to find a light commercial obeying the limits.

19th Aug 2016 6:28pm

Riccarton

Member Since: 10 Aug 2015
Location: Gods' Own Country
Posts: 280

2012 Defender 90 Puma 2.2 HT Zambezi Silver

blackwolf wrote:
mse wrote:
...Rather interestingly i read an article last month about the roll out of variable vehicle speed enforcement on cameras and speed vans...basically most (not all) speed cameras current are set to the road limit and are "dumb" so dont know your vehicle type. What they are developing is one that checks your vehicle type to speed and then acts accordingly. Apparently its live in some areas now!

Where was the article?

The problem with this is that some things are possible and some are not. There have for years been cameras which can differentiate between HGVs and non-HGVs, for example, based on their radar signature. However it is not even now possible to differentiate between a vehicle which is a DPV and a similar one which is not by any means other than a VRN look-up (because visually there is no difference). In order for this to work, there has to be a record on someone's database that contains some information that allows a determination to be made. At present, neither the ULW nor the vehicle's C&U classification is recorded anywhere, so this cannot happen. It may be in the future this information is recorded, but it isn't now and I am not aware of any plans for it to be recorded. If it does come about it is more likely that it will be recorded for new vehicles rather than retrospectively.

There is also a massive data overhead with any VRN look-up system, but with the rapid technological advance in networkmtechnologies this is no longer such an issue.

So whilst there is no doubt that there are systems which can differentiate between some vehicle types, I do not believe that there are any which can identify a DPV Defender from a non-DPV Defender.

A colleague was prosecuted more than 12 months ago by a "Safety Camera" for doing 58 in a de-restricted zone - he was driving a VW Caddy which is no longer considered a "car derived van" and was therefore restricted to the lower limit.

19th Aug 2016 6:35pm

JJ

Member Since: 18 May 2009
Location: Winchester
Posts: 932

1987 Defender 110 V8 Petrol CSW Corris Grey

I suspect that the vast majority of sole trader builders,plumbers, sparkies etc have no idea that their vehicles are subject to different speed limits . The payload is just how much can I get in, if it is full use the passenger seat for extra capacity. HR064 Hampshire and Berkshire 4x4 Response

19th Aug 2016 6:36pm

blackwolf

Member Since: 03 Nov 2009
Location: South West England
Posts: 17354

Now that (Riccarton's post above) is interesting! However "safety" camera vans usually have an operator sat in them who could presumably make the judgement.

I wonder how that actually came about.

19th Aug 2016 6:40pm

mse

Member Since: 06 Apr 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 5035

I can't remember or find the article tbh, too long ago I'm afraid Mike

19th Aug 2016 10:13pm

mse

Member Since: 06 Apr 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 5035

blackwolf wrote:
mse wrote:
...Rather interestingly i read an article last month about the roll out of variable vehicle speed enforcement on cameras and speed vans...basically most (not all) speed cameras current are set to the road limit and are "dumb" so dont know your vehicle type. What they are developing is one that checks your vehicle type to speed and then acts accordingly. Apparently its live in some areas now!

Where was the article?

Found it

http://www.businessvans.co.uk/van-news/sma...n-drivers/ Mike

20th Aug 2016 9:18am

blackwolf

Member Since: 03 Nov 2009
Location: South West England
Posts: 17354

Thank you!

The article makes it clear that it is refering to SPECS (and presumably similar) systems that incorporate ANPR and therefore rely upon VRN look-ups to the PNC or DVSA databases.

Since these do not at present record DPV status or ULW I don't see that they can determine limits for ambiguous vehicles such as the Defender, though in time this may change.

20th Aug 2016 9:56am

mse

Member Since: 06 Apr 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 5035

No Problem

As with all these technologies they (annoyingly)develop it...but agree, there are loads of vehicles with ambiguities or that have gaps in registration documentation etc Mike

20th Aug 2016 10:13am

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