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Caterham



Member Since: 06 Nov 2008
Location: Birmingham
Posts: 6324
England 2011 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 XS CSW Stornoway Grey
the clever wiring
So the canbus stuff
Are the various sensors etc on a loop or are they all wired individually on radial circuits?

Many thanks
Post #352042 16th Aug 2014 11:03pm
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K9F



Member Since: 12 Nov 2009
Location: Bournemouth
Posts: 9610
United Kingdom 2008 Defender 90 Puma 2.4 XS CSW Stornoway Grey
As an electrician who has experience with 1553 databus even I do not understand your question. A canbus can be a two way street to an individual or group of sensors or circuits so it sends signals and often expects something in return often on the same line. These return signals are differentiated from each other by seperate modulated frequencies or voltages that determine what sensor or circuit is responding and the information dealt with and processed accordingly.

It cannot be likened to a domestic installation with radial, spur or ring/loop like terminology. What is it exactly you are trying to achieve or wish to know? Try to be a little more specific.

If this is yet another of your fog knitting, wild goose chase theories please don't expect an answer anytime soon! Whistle If you go through life with your head in the sand....all people will see is an ar5e!!

Treat every day as if it is your last....one day you will be right!!
Post #352043 16th Aug 2014 11:09pm
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Roy5695



Member Since: 15 Feb 2014
Location: Cornwall
Posts: 1123
United Kingdom 2011 Defender 110 Puma 2.2 XS DCPU Indus Silver
ooooo, 1553 databus, lovely. combined with a bit of arinc 429 or 622 and you're on for a winner.

but yeah like k9f said, more info required.
Post #352047 16th Aug 2014 11:49pm
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Caterham



Member Since: 06 Nov 2008
Location: Birmingham
Posts: 6324
England 2011 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 XS CSW Stornoway Grey
Just trying to understanding whether items such as turbo, maf, egr etc share any controller wiring or if they all go back to the ecm on an individual basis?

Many thanks Mr. Green
Post #352062 17th Aug 2014 8:13am
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K9F



Member Since: 12 Nov 2009
Location: Bournemouth
Posts: 9610
United Kingdom 2008 Defender 90 Puma 2.4 XS CSW Stornoway Grey
Chapter 303-14 of the wiring diagrams. You go figure! If you don't have access to them use Dgardel's link.

Thumbs Up If you go through life with your head in the sand....all people will see is an ar5e!!

Treat every day as if it is your last....one day you will be right!!
Post #352065 17th Aug 2014 8:38am
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munch90



Member Since: 26 Oct 2013
Location: guildford
Posts: 3558
England 
are you having the codes read propeley or just scangauge or something similer
Post #352066 17th Aug 2014 8:39am
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Caterham



Member Since: 06 Nov 2008
Location: Birmingham
Posts: 6324
England 2011 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 XS CSW Stornoway Grey
I don't have any codes at the moment but my concern comes from my long standing intermittent problem and noticing my turbo actuator do a full movement while ticking over while I was jiggling the wiring.

Must get the lap top out later - cheers Mal.
Post #352068 17th Aug 2014 8:56am
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Martin
Site Admin


Member Since: 02 Apr 2007
Location: Hook Norton
Posts: 6657
United Kingdom 2015 Defender 90 Puma 2.2 XS CSW Montalcino Red
Sensor and actuators generally do not have their own CAN connections (they are not "smart" actuators or sensors). There are exceptions though - but not on Puma.

On the Puma there is only a single CAN bus I believe, between the instrument pack and the engine ECU.

Think of CAN as a little like a wired computer network (it's a network after all).

You can connect computers (ECUs/modules) together using it.

Connected to those computers can be printers/scanners/webcams/keyboards/mice/etc (the sensors/actuators) which are not themselves directly on the CAN bus. However those devices or the results from them may be shared on the network, depending on how they need to be used by other computers on the network.

So going back to your original question, the sensor wiring has nothing to do with the CAN bus architecture. Each sensor/actuator on the engine is wired back to the engine ECU individually. There are some shared power and ground supplies for some of them.  1988 90 Td5 NAS soft top
2015 D90 XS SW
Post #352072 17th Aug 2014 9:38am
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Caterham



Member Since: 06 Nov 2008
Location: Birmingham
Posts: 6324
England 2011 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 XS CSW Stornoway Grey
Many thanks.....and this reminds me to pack my multi meter for my hols.
Post #352093 17th Aug 2014 10:55am
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martinfiattech



Member Since: 13 Nov 2013
Location: leicester
Posts: 422
England 
If your going to start investigating the can system, throw the multi meter in the bin and get yourself a scope and wave form guide.

As the vehicle is running I would leave the can network to it`s own devices. If the vehicle was more modern you could kill it by removing one wire Excuse the spelling I`am better with spanners and wires.
Post #352188 17th Aug 2014 8:41pm
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Cuthbert



Member Since: 26 Oct 2013
Location: Up North
Posts: 1535
This thread has my full attention - I'm just waiting to see what happens next - Will it all end in tears or rejoicing.

Some topics are best left to the real experts
Post #352221 17th Aug 2014 10:41pm
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Lorryman100



Member Since: 01 Oct 2010
Location: Here
Posts: 2686
Wayne, take everyone's advice and stay away from the CAN network unless you know what you are doing. The only time I would use a DMM on the network is for an Ohms check, otherwise use a waveform oscilloscope like the 4 channel Pico scope. Thumbs Up

Taken from another post reference the CAN network.

Lorryman100 wrote:
As Pete has said you will need to terminate the Data Bus with a 120Ω terminating resistor, these resistors are used to terminate the network and to prevent signal reflections. You can also use these known resistor values to analyse the physical layer of the network for open and short circuits. The data bus (High speed 500k) only needs two and you can test the physical layer of the data bus with a digital multimeter by measuring across the CAN Low (-) and Can High (+), a good network connection should give a reading of 60Ω. (using Ohms law, 2 x 120Ω resistors mounted in parallel will produce a resistance value of 60Ω). On the instrument cluster plug, pin 16 is the CAN + (SJ6) and Pin 32 is CAN - (SJ5).
The other option is to use an oscilloscope to do a waveform analysis of the CAN network. This is where it can get slightly techy in the set up and use. The network bus speed is 500kbps so a 500µs time base is needed as is two channels, each set up at 5v to read the 2.5v signal of both CAN + and CAN - and this is seen by the ECU as a recessive state and is counted as a digital 1. So in the dominant CAN + the voltage will be 3.5v and the dominant state for CAN- will be 1.5v, this difference of 2v is seen by the ECU as a dominant state and counts this as a digital 0. Thumbs Up


Click image to enlarge

Notice how both CAN+ and CAN- signals are both directly opposed? You can see the recessive state at 2.5v and the dominant state of CAN+ at 3.5v and CAN- at 1.5v.


Admin note: this post has had its images recovered from a money grabbing photo hosting site and reinstated Mr. Green
Post #352229 18th Aug 2014 12:32am
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Caterham



Member Since: 06 Nov 2008
Location: Birmingham
Posts: 6324
England 2011 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 XS CSW Stornoway Grey
Shocked

So back from hols and never got a chance to look into the wiring - probably just as well Laughing

All my spare time was taken up polishing Very Happy

Half way through cutting the lawns and thought I'd drop a quick question in before I do a big write up later which some may find interesting (most probably won't Mr. Green )

If I don't get the answer i'll be doing a search later after another test drive and before my write up Thumbs Up

Can anyone tell me what the middle connector / multi plug on the ecm is for?

Many thanks Thumbs Up
Post #354592 30th Aug 2014 4:53pm
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K9F



Member Since: 12 Nov 2009
Location: Bournemouth
Posts: 9610
United Kingdom 2008 Defender 90 Puma 2.4 XS CSW Stornoway Grey
303-14 - ELECTRONIC ENGINE CONTROLS in the wiring diagrams. Four pages detailing all the ECM (D131) connections.

Whistle If you go through life with your head in the sand....all people will see is an ar5e!!

Treat every day as if it is your last....one day you will be right!!
Post #354606 30th Aug 2014 6:10pm
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munch90



Member Since: 26 Oct 2013
Location: guildford
Posts: 3558
England 
caterham , did it play up then ?
Post #354610 30th Aug 2014 6:26pm
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