 | Home > Technical > Help! VCV/ ECU PROBLEM Scared I’ve bought a nail! |
 
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| Ianh Member Since: 17 Sep 2018 Location: Essex Posts: 2029  
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Just to confirm. Have you checked the 30Amp starter relay fuse in the driver seat box ?
See this topic, posts from Martin near the bottom of page 1 https://www.defender2.net/forum/topic78128...t=60a+fuse |
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27th May 2023 8:24pm |
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| whathaveidone Member Since: 18 May 2023 Location: Cheltenham Posts: 28 
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Morning folks. Thank you for all the advice. I’ve gone round in circles a bit but have checked all fuses and relays, all good, also all connections etc. Got another bump and after a bit of a fiddle read off the back of the alternator. Seem to only be getting 3.6 volts. Therefore am I just unlucky and have wild coincidence of a failed alternator and starter motor? Is there a voltage regulator or other component as part of the alternator that could be faulty and giving this reading? I haven’t checked the connections or voltages on the starter motor as I’m struggling to locate it, I’ll have another go today. Any other thoughts on these scenarios and any suggestions greatly appreciated.
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29th May 2023 4:55am |
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| blackwolf Member Since: 03 Nov 2009 Location: South West England Posts: 17437 
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There are several things which link the alternator and the starter. The power cabling, the earth connections, the ECM, and the ignition circuit.
The next step I would take would be to bypass the starter relay R102 (the mounting socket for which is connector C0151 in LR nomenclature) and see if the starter cranks reliable with a 12V supply connected to C0151 pin 87, which is the output from the starter relay under the driver's seat which energises the solenoid. If the main power and ground to the starter, the starter solenoid, and the wiring from the solenoid to the motor are sound, the starter should crank reliably every time that this connector is energised and by so doing will rule out the main battery connections, starter and solenoid and point towards an ignition circuit, ECM, or immobiliser circuit malfunction. On the other hand if it doesn't crank then it suggests a starter motor, solenoid, battery, power cabling, earth, or wiring from the seat locker to the solenoid fault. You do not need the ignition on to crank the engine by this means, it should crank (but not start) when the pin is energised. Let us know how you get on, and we can provide more suggestions based on what happens when you try this. The easiest way to energise it is to check that you have 12V on C0151 pin 30 (which is a permanent live and comes from 60A link 5 in the BJB and also supplies the ignition switch) then bridge this to pin 87, ideally with a switch in the link for convenience. The current should not be particularly high, the relay normally energises the solenoid which in turn switches the starter current, but you are likely to get some sparking if you are just flashing wires together, hence the recommendation for a switch (ideally a pushbutton) if possible. (I use an old-school push button starter bypass switch for things like this, one of these, though cheaper ones are available). The starter relay R102 is located under the drivers seat, and should be as shown in the diagram below, (but note that I drew this diagram - since widely redistributed on the Internet without attribution - for my 2007 Puma so it is possible that yours, being later, is different. https://www.defender2.net/gallery/albums/u...Relays.pdf The pin layout follows the convention for a power relay and should be marked with the standard nomenclature on the body of the relay. You are looking for the pin marked "30" for the input power and the pin marked "87" for the output to the solenoid. Incidentally relays 2 and 3 in my diagram are the two which are most likely to cause intermittent starting problems if they don't make really good contact with their sockets. My vehicle suffered a plague of such problems until I carefully kinked the relay pins so that they made a really good connection. Land-Rover seems to buy their female spade connectors from the Gimcrack Connector Company and not only are they often loose to start with but seem to have zero springiness. LR clearly recognised that there were issues since when new my Defender had lengths of factory-fitted Sellotape-like tape holding the fuses under the dash in place. When I peeled off the tape, most of the fuses came with it. Truly shocking manufacturing quality, and sad to say it only became worse after 2007 as the "value engineering" increased. |
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29th May 2023 9:55am |
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| whathaveidone Member Since: 18 May 2023 Location: Cheltenham Posts: 28
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Thank you once again. Here are my findings. I located the grey relay, it the pins are marked 1,2,3 and 5 as picture. I presumed I’d join 3 and 5. Nothing happened. Key was then turned and heard the same clunk like the solenoid, no starter turning. The starter relay next to it can be heard and felt operating with the turn of the key simultaneously with the solenoid clunk. To note if it adds anything with the link removed and the grey relay also removed it still performs the same. [/list]
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29th May 2023 11:25am |
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| whathaveidone Member Since: 18 May 2023 Location: Cheltenham Posts: 28
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 Click image to enlarge Click image to enlarge |
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29th May 2023 11:26am |
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| blackwolf Member Since: 03 Nov 2009 Location: South West England Posts: 17437
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Aha, I'm afraid that if it was a grey relay it was the wrong one, probably the glow plug relay.
Do you have ABS on your Defender? If not you won't have the relay in position number 1 in my diagram, and it is easy to count three along and get the glow plug relay by mistake (a theory which is supported by the fact that you could still hear the solenoid clicking with the relay removed). The main and starter relays (if original) will be black with a white stripe and it is almost certainly the one immediately to the rear of the grey one that you need to remove. With it removed there should be no click or clunk from the solenoid, since the solenoid cannot be energising with the relay out. In the photo below, the uppermost (black) relay is the main relay (No2 in my diagram, and effectively the "ignition on" relay for the ECM), the middle (black) relay is the starter relay (No 3), and the lower (grey) relay is the glow plug relay (No 4). The vehicle in the photo does not have ABS and therefore does not have the ABS relay. Click image to enlarge |
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29th May 2023 11:55am |
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| whathaveidone Member Since: 18 May 2023 Location: Cheltenham Posts: 28
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So sorry. I’m a fool. Even read “black with grey stripe.” I’m suffering defender fatigue! 😂 So just looped that relay out, when 12v applied I’m getting the same solenoid clunk from the starter. No starter motor turning. I’ve also just cleaned and checked earths to transfer box, chassis and bulkhead.
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29th May 2023 1:05pm |
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| blackwolf Member Since: 03 Nov 2009 Location: South West England Posts: 17437
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In that case I suspect that you either have a faulty starter/solenoid, or the connection of the battery lead on the back of the solenoid is loose or corroded. I believe that you did the jump-lead-from-engine-to-battery-neg-terminal test already, to rule out an earth fault?
The next thing I would do is remove the starter and test it off the vehicle. Unfortunately removing the starter is not particularly enjoyable. There are several threads on here already about removing the starter, personally I found working from underneath was the least difficult way. |
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29th May 2023 1:30pm |
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| Martin Site Admin Member Since: 02 Apr 2007 Location: Hook Norton Posts: 6610 
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Have you checked for voltage on the big red starter/alternator cable?
1988 90 Td5 NAS soft top
2015 D90 XS SW |
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29th May 2023 1:32pm |
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| whathaveidone Member Since: 18 May 2023 Location: Cheltenham Posts: 28
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Thank you once again for your time and troubles. Yes, I also checked the earth cables and cables to the rear of the solenoid. I’ve therefore ordered a new starter motor and new alternator. Should be here by the end of the week. Fingers crossed!! |
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29th May 2023 7:56pm |
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| whathaveidone Member Since: 18 May 2023 Location: Cheltenham Posts: 28
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Thank you. Yes, when running the alternator was giving out a very low voltage. Hence the battery light I guess. Let’s hope it’s the alternator and not something else causing this. I had voltage at the solenoid too. |
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29th May 2023 7:58pm |
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| whathaveidone Member Since: 18 May 2023 Location: Cheltenham Posts: 28
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Back again! So… picked up a new starter and new alternator today. Just changed the starter first as I presumed the worst job. Exactly the same symptom. Turn the key and the solenoid clunks, starter will not turn. A crucial update is ive tried a new multimeter. With ignition in first position I’m getting 12.6 at the battery and just 3.6 behind the alternator and 3.6 on the constant live at the starter.
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31st May 2023 11:02am |
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| NickMc Member Since: 01 Oct 2014 Location: Norn Iron Posts: 1628  
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Like I said I had this on one before and the fuse box under the dash was all corroded, the 10AS box too, water intrusion. Defenders have the ford “smart charge alternator” you’ll need to take that into account with your P0623 fault and you misfire complaint too. Possibly a fault IAT or coolant temp sensor? Or wrong poor battery.
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31st May 2023 3:33pm |
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| whathaveidone Member Since: 18 May 2023 Location: Cheltenham Posts: 28
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It would appear the biggest fault is me being a moron. After finding 3.6v at starter and alternator I decided to deal with it the British way, have a cup and think. I immediately walked straight back and checked the mega 500a fuse connected to the battery. No continuity. Another visit to the parts shop and it fired straight up, then giving 14v at the alternator. Still need to road test when the seats are back in etc. Potentially great news apart from what caused the problem initially. It works with the symptoms earlier in the post I guess of all instruments cutting out momentarily.
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31st May 2023 4:37pm |
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