 | Home > Puma (Tdci) > Emissions Test Failed on Dutch MOT equivalent - HELP |
 
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| Dinnu Member Since: 24 Dec 2019 Location: Lija Posts: 3414   
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With the CoC (and I hope it will be available - you need to contact JLR) you will prove that the seller misinformed you, and that you have a EU4 emission standard, which for a 2015 vehicle, is non complaint in the EU.
If he is a dealer, then you have more leverage than if he was a private individual. 1988 90 Hard Top, 19J Diesel Turbo, Shire Blue - Restoration ongoing 2012 90 CSW, 2.2TDCI, Santorini Black |
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20th May 2023 5:41pm |
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| BaCoNMX6 Member Since: 22 Apr 2022 Location: Amsterdam Posts: 63 
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So let's say I go to JLR and get their CoC....based on my VIN it will show as Euro4.
Still doesn't really solve for the discussion that will follow by the seller that irrespective of what the car originally was it now has a dpf system (since thats his belief) and thus is compliant. Since I suspect the CoC does not go into any component specifics, other than 'proving' that from factory it wasn't Euro5 compliant, I am not sure what other discussion it unlocks for me? |
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21st May 2023 3:45pm |
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| Dinnu Member Since: 24 Dec 2019 Location: Lija Posts: 3414
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You could ask him for proof of when the DPF was fitted?
Without a proof it is just a statement. I do not know if you could have an inspection by a JLR authorized dealer and ask to state if the vehicle has a DPF or not? 1988 90 Hard Top, 19J Diesel Turbo, Shire Blue - Restoration ongoing 2012 90 CSW, 2.2TDCI, Santorini Black |
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21st May 2023 5:11pm |
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| TexasRover Member Since: 24 Nov 2022 Location: Paris Posts: 1052  
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Well since you have been conned by seller and the authorities that allowed the vehicle to be registered it could give you recourse. As it stands now, short of fitting a DPF for every test it will fail the APK. Al this might be ok for you, but what if you want to sell the vehicle? Will you be held liable by the next owner?
Obviously the risk is you end up with an unregistered vehicle if they retract the registration, so yes in a bit of a pickle you are |
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21st May 2023 7:48pm |
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| HardCharger Member Since: 03 Mar 2013 Location: Manila Posts: 737  
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Would it be possible for you to use a parts manual since it will clearly show that the 2.4 does not, in fact, have a DPF and that they only came out with the 2.2 Pumas?
If you have an official workshop manual for both 2.4 and 2.2 Pumas you can look up exhaust systems from there and see the difference, right? Last edited by HardCharger on 23rd May 2023 4:32am. Edited 1 time in total |
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22nd May 2023 2:00am |
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| BaCoNMX6 Member Since: 22 Apr 2022 Location: Amsterdam Posts: 63
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Hey All
TexasRover - what you outline is my only real concern - 'What if' something changes in the future and this situation becomes a real problem. Dinnu - I like the idea of asking for DPF evidence however since it was already ~9 years old when he bought/resold it its likely a dead end. Also want to avoid any 'official' inspection at this stage which could result in immediate issues as I want to try and handle this with the seller. HardCharger - thats a great idea and its sort of what I am trying to find. Best io have so far is this (https://www.motortradenews.com/automotive-news/land-rover-defender-gets-euro5-diesel-for-2012/) article as it clearly states the 2.4 was not EU5 compliant as it doesnt have a DPF however doesnt go into the EU vs ROW spec issue I am dealing with. I might try shooting an email to JLR and hoping for a detailed response.... |
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22nd May 2023 6:16am |
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| HardCharger Member Since: 03 Mar 2013 Location: Manila Posts: 737
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Another resource can be the owner's manuals of the 2.4 and 2.2. They will indicate the kind of fuel. My 2011 2.4 Puma manual states it has to use Euro 4 diesel.
I hope this also helps. |
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23rd May 2023 4:41am |
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| Retroanaconda Member Since: 04 Jan 2012 Location: Scotland Posts: 2646 
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The workshop manual will describe the exhaust systems in detail, including DPFs, catalytic converters, sensors etc.
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23rd May 2023 4:46am |
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| hornet Member Since: 04 Jan 2010 Location: Western Europe Posts: 361 |
I can't understand why you don't get a paper that can be relied upon, either the already named CoC or the written expertise of an LR workshop.
Then there is (hopefully) the purchase contract with guaranteed characteristics of the vehicle. That's it. |
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6th Jun 2023 12:48pm |
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| blackwolf Member Since: 03 Nov 2009 Location: South West England Posts: 17383  
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The vehicle build data stored in the ECM of my 2007 2.4 when interrogated with a diagnostic tool such as Nanocom tells me, in addition to useful stuff like the VIN, that the vehicle is Euro4 compliant.
If you have or can get access to a similar diagnostic tool, read your vehicle data from the ECM. I will bet it says that you too have a Euro4-spec vehicle. That should be pretty definitive as an answer. |
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6th Jun 2023 2:06pm |
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| TexasRover Member Since: 24 Nov 2022 Location: Paris Posts: 1052
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I think it was already established that the OP HAS an Eur4 RoW vehicle, which should not have been allowed to be registered, but it was. So now the vehicle is not compliant and the OP probably does not have any recourse on the seller especially since this could result in the registration being withdrawn (i.e. deeper
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It's a case of bad luck, we can all fall victim to the motor trade and their shoddy practices. |
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6th Jun 2023 3:59pm |
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| BaCoNMX6 Member Since: 22 Apr 2022 Location: Amsterdam Posts: 63
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Hey All,
Honestly its a mixture of things and before I make any claim/comment to the seller things need to be pretty bullet proof as there is no going back once the shot is fired. I have been in touch with JLR directly who forwarded my questions to homologation who were only willing to comment that "that VIN left the factory as Euro4" - which we all knew but good to have brand confirmation. However this does not stop a discussion on what might have happened to the vehicle over the following ~10 years of its life. In a perfect world I would have a reputable source be able to confirm that there have only ever been 2 downpipes for the 2.2 PUMA - 1 being for EU5 vehicles; DPF [active regen] + CAT (and looks like this xxx and pn xxx); and the other being a CAT only which was only EU4 (again with some identifying features) So I tried asking some questions to this effect however JLR declined to comment and instead asked me to go through a part department of their dealer network who will be able to answer such 'technical' questions. Now I have been in touch with 3 difference parts departments and simply am not finding anyone willing/capable of helping me. They all ask for a VIN, and lookup the suitable downpipe and ignore all other questions simply telling me that the EU4 downpipe is the one for my vehicle.....again, not new news. So I find myself stuck whereby I theoretically could approach the seller stating he sold me an incorrectly registered vehicle and request the factory DPF be correctly retrofitted (assuming its even possible) however at this stage (and if i were him) I have no hard 'proof' that would compel them to act IMO. edit - and playing devils advocate the seller might well have inherited the issue if it was infact previously registered in Germany as EU5 and so all he did was a transfer - and in that case its even more of a grey/sticky mess to poke! All i have right now on the seller is that, according to the general/forum knowledge there is no such thing as a 'passive' dpf system for a 2.2 PUMA (or 2.4!) as he is adamantly claiming - either he is lying to cover his issues, or he genuinely believes that - either way I need something concrete if I am going to hold him accountable and right now I dont feel like I have it. |
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6th Jun 2023 6:26pm |
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| hornet Member Since: 04 Jan 2010 Location: Western Europe Posts: 361 |
Well, i think it has been sufficiently documented in the meantime. It can be proven that your vehicle is a vehicle without a particulate filter ex works. Since it was registered with a supposed particulate filter, there is only the fact of tax evasion, if taxed according to pollutant emissions. You have purchased the vehicle with a significant defect that was not apparent to you, you could only determine this through the particle measurement! Otherwise it never would showed up.
I have not yet understood where the defect arose. Probably it does not matter. The initial place of registration would be decisive. Imho you have a few possibilities: 1. try to retrofit the active particulate filter with engine control yourself/JLR workshop (and claim the seller for these costs!) Time consuming process. 2. install a passive particulate filter for MOT (tax evasion) 3. reclassify the vehicle as EURO 4 and pay higher taxes (probably won't work) I feel with you. Keep us updated. |
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9th Jun 2023 7:48am |
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| Martin Site Admin Member Since: 02 Apr 2007 Location: Hook Norton Posts: 6605 
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JLR's official parts catalogue:
https://parts.jaguarlandroverclassic.com/p...and-rover/ If you open up Part 1 "Catalyst" - you can see "Stage V Plus DPF" and "EU2,Euro Stage 4 Emissions" versions of the downpipe.  1988 90 Td5 NAS soft top
2015 D90 XS SW |
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9th Jun 2023 12:02pm |
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