 | Home > Puma (Tdci) > Emissions Test Failed on Dutch MOT equivalent - HELP |
 
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| TexasRover Member Since: 24 Nov 2022 Location: Paris Posts: 1043   
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What about all the EGR system being removed by Td5 owners? Any tempering with emission devises is not allowed, but who checks and who cares?
I was actually looking at my Disco 4 3.0 the other day (french reg Nov 2009). The 3.0 exists with and without DPF and mine is without. There is a sticker under the bonnet that lists all the diesel engine options and the 'smoke value' incl the certificate nrs 3.0 with DPF: 0.51 3.0 without DPF: 1.98 I then read up on the UK website that the smoke value as listed on the vehicle must be used, unless there is no information and then generic information can be used, which would be 'the law'. Not familiar with how this works with the new laws but if you would have a legitimately imported car, can you not have Land Rover state what SHOULD be the smoke value for the vehicle based on the VIN and then have the APK test it to that value? There should be a certificate reference etc. |
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16th May 2023 2:37pm |
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| blackwolf Member Since: 03 Nov 2009 Location: South West England Posts: 17366  
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I agree, but I doubt that "the system" will have any sympathy for the OP all the same. |
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16th May 2023 3:23pm |
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| blackwolf Member Since: 03 Nov 2009 Location: South West England Posts: 17366
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Exactly, it is illegal to use a vehicle which has had the emission equipment tampered with. Worse still, the laws are retroactive, so if you de-catted or de-EGRed your TD5 at a time when it was fully legal, it now isn't legal any more. You are incredibly unlikely to get caught at the moment (a VOSA check probably would do it, an MoT should but is purely a visible check and a disabled EGR or cat looks the same as a working one) but the testing regimes may get more effective as time passes. The fact you are unlikely to be detected however doesn't make it right, any more than, say, speeding is OK until you get caught. It is very much the case that increasing legislation makes little difference and just makes more and more of an ass of itself. An unenforceable law is, to a great extent, a pointless law. |
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16th May 2023 3:29pm |
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| Retroanaconda Member Since: 04 Jan 2012 Location: Scotland Posts: 2641 
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Indeed. And by removing the sticker the smoke test defaults to the generic value, which also happens to be the most lenient one. Suffice to say I never bothered putting the sticker back on  |
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16th May 2023 5:50pm |
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| hornet Member Since: 04 Jan 2010 Location: Western Europe Posts: 361 |
Very far OT
Unfortunately, as always, this is very ambivalent. In countries where the taxation of the vehicle is graded according to the emissions, removing the technology is simply tax evasion. However, removing EGR ensures that the soot in the system is significantly reduced. soot = wear and tear. Removing the catalytic converter/DPF results in lower backpressure (turbo spools up quicker) and less diesel in the oil, which also means less wear and tear and lower fuel consumption. We buy these environmental features with higher primary energy consumption and higher costs due to wear and tear and are therefore on balance no better.  |
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17th May 2023 7:27am |
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| BaCoNMX6 Member Since: 22 Apr 2022 Location: Amsterdam Posts: 63 
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Love the conversation!
I am with balckwolf on this one.... A bit more backstory I have managed to find out from the dealer I bought it from (same workshop I have been using for the moment too) He acquired the car from a person in Germany who also happened to have multiple businesses also in Russia. Apparently the car came with German papers although I have never seen them. The 'Car Vertical' report I have run (attached) has a gap from 2014 to 2021. I cant work out why it was ever documented in NL to begin with however the gap 'suggests' it was then registered in Russia as Germany is part of the CarVertical network so I would have expected to see it if it was actually registered in Germany.  Click image to enlarge In late 2021 is when I bought the car and somewhere along the lines it has been registered in the EU - either by the prior owner in Germany or by the guy i bought it from in NL. The seller is adamant the downpipe includes a DPF and continues to state "The car has a DPF filter just like the 2.4 cars. It is not just a cat pipe. It just doesn't have sensor on it so the ECU cant do regeneration" This is what I had initially beleived however research and this thread suggest the seller is incorrect and the reality is there is either a fully plugged in DPF system included in a downpipe or JUST a Cat. There simply was never a 'passive' dpf system released in the downpipe from factory from what I can find. So I am left with a car that potentially has slipped into EU registration with an incorrect emissions system fitted - not my fault however, as Blackwolf points out, also still my problem! Reality is that there is a slim to no chance of this ever being an issue (at least in the foreseeable future) as long as a dpf is fitted for the annual APK/MOT which is the only time it will be checked - and in the past this wasn't an issue as the NL previously did not do any form of emission testing as part of annual checks! Fun times but glad I believe I have gotten to the murky bottom of my issue.....the car had a Cat only downpipe so was never going to pass the emission test and i wasted a bunch of cash having the downpipe removed and professionally cleaned since it will do close to jack for a cat! |
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18th May 2023 9:03am |
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| blackwolf Member Since: 03 Nov 2009 Location: South West England Posts: 17366
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The seller is wrong, the 2.4 cars do not and have never had a DPF! |
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18th May 2023 3:17pm |
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| BaCoNMX6 Member Since: 22 Apr 2022 Location: Amsterdam Posts: 63
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Ever tried to tell a dutchie they are wrong? Hehe
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18th May 2023 3:21pm |
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| BaCoNMX6 Member Since: 22 Apr 2022 Location: Amsterdam Posts: 63
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In all seriousness though it's a tough discussion when I have no easy facts to point to when he has it set in his mind.
Plus unless I am looking to somehow prove/force he knew and wrongfully sold me something then it's kinds pointless. |
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18th May 2023 3:23pm |
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| Dinnu Member Since: 24 Dec 2019 Location: Lija Posts: 3414  
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I do it every day
Keep in mind that the law does not treat ignorance as an excuse. 1988 90 Hard Top, 19J Diesel Turbo, Shire Blue - Restoration ongoing 2012 90 CSW, 2.2TDCI, Santorini Black |
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18th May 2023 6:06pm |
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| hornet Member Since: 04 Jan 2010 Location: Western Europe Posts: 361 |
My suggestion would be to confront the seller with his misunderstanding and demand a professional retrofit. My guess is that he won't do that, so the only option would be to go to a lawyer and appoint an expert. Alternatively, the only way to pass the test would be to (always) temporarily retrofit the DPF; a passive catalytic converter would not even be necessary. Both are expensive, the first is the cleanest solution and probably indispensable in the event of resale in the EU. |
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19th May 2023 6:50am |
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| BaCoNMX6 Member Since: 22 Apr 2022 Location: Amsterdam Posts: 63
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While I don't disagree can anyone point me to some formal information at all outlining what we have spoken about here?
I.e. official LR publication on the EU vs ROW spec and the downpipe itself? Otherwise we get straight into a 'he said, she said' and while I don't doubt the forum know how it's a bit hard to formally use. And then appointing a lawyer would also involve formalizing my case and again will need actual documents and references and not just people's know how which would add costs up quick in my experience. |
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20th May 2023 12:56pm |
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| Dinnu Member Since: 24 Dec 2019 Location: Lija Posts: 3414
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If you get a CoC (Certificate of Conformity), there is a paragraph called Environmental Performance. In there it will state the emissions level (4 for EU4 or 5 for EU5) and will also state the CO, NOx, Particulates etc.
I do not know if that is enough of a proof, however I believe that is the most legally accepted document and that is for your vehicle. 1988 90 Hard Top, 19J Diesel Turbo, Shire Blue - Restoration ongoing 2012 90 CSW, 2.2TDCI, Santorini Black |
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20th May 2023 2:50pm |
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| BaCoNMX6 Member Since: 22 Apr 2022 Location: Amsterdam Posts: 63
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Hey Dinnu.
Perhaps I am missing something but not sure where/how you would suggest to use such a document? (also not sure I have heard of that before or would know how to acquire it) The issue as it stands is the vehicle is registered as EU5 however was a ROW spec which doesnt seem to have been converted at any stage. However seller believes there is a factory fitted DPF despite the forum wisdom suggesting that cant be the case since a 'passive' DPF never existed and the 2.2 PUMA only came with a CAT+DPF downpipe in the EU or a CAT only for ROW. However, while all the information is great, it still simply leave me in a "the forums say your wrong" position which isnt exactly a strong position to go in for a negotiation on fixing anything. So I am asking if there is a link or anything to any formal publication outlining the history of the PUMA emissions and EU vs ROW spec or anything that clear shows there are only 2 downpipe options and his understanding therefore simply cannot be correct. |
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20th May 2023 4:24pm |
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