 | Home > Puma (Tdci) > Emissions Test Failed on Dutch MOT equivalent - HELP |
 
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| hornet Member Since: 04 Jan 2010 Location: Western Europe Posts: 361  |
Yes, no particle counting, only turbidity  |
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10th May 2023 10:50am |
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| BaCoNMX6 Member Since: 22 Apr 2022 Location: Amsterdam Posts: 63 
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Thanks for all the input.
Possibly seems to be some confusion however I am confident that the car requires a particulate emissions test as its a late model 2.2 which some managed to get EURO4 registrations for some reason and I intend on retaining it - two different shops have looked up the registration and confirmed the requirement in order to keep its status. From 1 Jan 2023 The Netherlands introduced the annual testing, prior to that it was not part of the annual vehicle inspection. So its 'similar' to an MOT in the UK however not a 1:1. By all accounts these things are very possible to pass the test and so there is clearly some sort of issue with mine. The question currently being that even a professional cleaning of the DPF hasn't dropped the figures enough so is is 'highly likely; to be the DPF or could it still reasonably be something else. The main thing in the back of my mind is that if the car has a dpf warning light why wouldnt it be lit up if there was such a failure? On one hand a 'dead' dpf makes some sense however being quoted almost 3k EUR for a new DPF so I am keen to exhaust other options first!! I have a standard tune from Alive now so need to go out to the workshop (3hr round trip!) - Suspecting it will have minimal impact but its worth a try for the time being. Any other areas people have seen cause emissions issues? |
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10th May 2023 12:33pm |
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| TomB8 Member Since: 17 Nov 2022 Location: West Sussex Posts: 115  
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Hi, I don't have the same engine as you, in fact there chalk and cheese in terms of technology, so I know little about yours. However, whilst idly reading your thread on my lunch break I had a couple of thoughts (which you may dismiss as silly, but I thought might be worth a mention):
Can you have your emissions tested with the DPF removed to see how much effect it is having and therefore whether it requires replacement? Assuming of course there is data on what its effect is supposed to be. Have you considered a slightly leaky injector? Perhaps not enough to cause a noticeable issue (rough running etc) but enough to push your emissions up? A bottle of half decent injector cleaner is pretty cheap to have a go with. Assuming that high a particulate reading could be caused by unburnt fuel (I am guessing) to my simple brain and ignoring all of the electronic controls/sensors etc, is there anything that could be causing a lack of complete combustion? Do you have any very slight turbo leaks - have you pressure tested? I see you had some turbo issue (not sure what it was) is there oil residue from pipes/turbo/intercooler being burned? As I say, I could be talking complete and utter nonsense, but I like to start at the basics. |
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10th May 2023 1:11pm |
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| BaCoNMX6 Member Since: 22 Apr 2022 Location: Amsterdam Posts: 63
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Hey Tom,
Appreciate the reply and thoughts and not silly at all and a similar train of thought that I have - and butting heads with my mechanic who insists its simply the DPF. I don't know anywhere near enough on what a DPF does/doesnt struggle to filter however I assume, similar to you, that unburnt fuel would the main contributor to 'parts per million emissions (aka soot)' outside the usual dirty diesel itself. Given that the initial reading was 17million, then 7million, then 3.5million all through cleaning the DPF either via additive or professional its clearly doing 'something'. I havnt seen any stats for this engine with no DPF and it would involve having a custom downpipe made and tuning to even test. By all accounts I would imagine it would read higher that 17million given thats the worst this car has had even with it installed. I have run a few different chemical cleaners through the system (which also advertise as injector cleaner) in the attempt to clean the DPF so I feel they are as clean as they will get in-situ. Doesn't mean there still couldn't still be a leak on the injector though however unsure how to 'test' for that. The intake side is the other possible route indeed and coupled with the noises I have still be chasing down thats where my gut tells me to keep looking however the recent smoke test showed no leak and given that was done up to 1 bar any air leak at idle would have been exposed for sure! Plan to load up a factory tune to make sure there isnt some weird setting in the Alive file causing issues and after that I am stumped! |
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10th May 2023 1:26pm |
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| Dinnu Member Since: 24 Dec 2019 Location: Lija Posts: 3414  
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Have you tried to connect to the OBD port and read the DPF load? It is more of a curiosity than helping you to solve your problem. Mine an early 2.2, at 183kkm is reading 40%. Just to note that this reading is calculated by the pressure differential sensor, that is fixed to the bulkhead close to the inertia switch. So if that is duff, you might get duff DPF load calculation.
Relatively recent, I read the load of a Ford Fiesta, Tdci, and that was something like 98%, same OBD tool, same app on my phone. As to the EGR comments posted earlier, I see that my EGR position goes to about 45% when idle. But unsure if that is 45% open or 45% closed. 1988 90 Hard Top, 19J Diesel Turbo, Shire Blue - Restoration ongoing 2012 90 CSW, 2.2TDCI, Santorini Black |
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10th May 2023 2:13pm |
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| TomB8 Member Since: 17 Nov 2022 Location: West Sussex Posts: 115
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Unfortunately, it seems more and more common that garages just want to bolt new bits on instead of properly trying to diagnose a fault. I mean they could be right, but as you have said it is a lot of money for a hunch. Could you maybe get one form a breakers?
If this is the first time the emissions have been tested since you had the tune then I guess that is the best place to start. I don't know much about dpf's but it does sound like you do long trips, which should mean from what I understand that it should be clean-ish, so perhaps you have some underlying issue that has resulted in excess build-up over time? Perhaps even just the tune and your right foot regularly testing how good it is. I am sure someone will be able to advise how to test for a leaky injector, it may be as simple as popping them out with the fuel rail, running the pump and watching for any drips? 1 bar should have revealed any leaks in the intake as you say. Do the noises happen when the car is stationary and if so, have you tried going round with a mechanics stethoscope? |
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10th May 2023 2:13pm |
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| BaCoNMX6 Member Since: 22 Apr 2022 Location: Amsterdam Posts: 63
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I will see if I am able to read the DPF load when I am with the car....would be interesting. I assume if its 'dead' and thus letting through too much then it would be a very low reading and perhaps the car just thinks its super clean.
What I cant get my head around is if it is a 'dead' dpf then why did the initial rounds of cleaning help at all?! - but perhaps this is also because I dont understand how they work well enough. @Tom Yes its bloody annoying to just have new parts thrown as the solution.....when I go see him I will suggest that IF i buy it and it doesnt make a difference he shouldnt charge me for it and keep the new one as stock on the shelf! This is the first time the emissions have ever been read which makes it hard to know what is normal. All i have to go off is my workshop who 'specialises' in Defenders saying they usually get the passed easily enough so 'there must be an issue'. I have done a bit of a search for breakers however not had much luck. They are not a super common car here unlike the UK but shipping and import duties makes it an expensive test.....not to mention the 300Eur to have it cleaned before fitting it. As you say the car should have been keeping the DPF fairly clean as it spends most of its life on the road doing big trips with a heavy right foot..... The noise I am chasing only seems to happen under boost so not at all at idle. I have taken the car to a few places to get their impression of the noise and they all just say its general 'turbo whistle'. Which I cant argue with as thats what it sounds like....it just didnt always do it! So thats the concern! I also suppose that a dead DPF could also be the source of the noise tbh....if there is something collapsed inside and it makes a whistline noise when boosted pressure goes through....? - Is this feasible or am I dreaming? |
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10th May 2023 2:55pm |
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| MatLandy Member Since: 11 Sep 2020 Location: Paris Posts: 184  
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That means 45% open, and is OK when idling. Most important is that you have 0% when accelerating and working the engine. If not you have a failing EGR (not capable of closing fully anymore). This means exhaust gas leaking back into the inlet manifold when revving and not adequate fuel/air mix to the combustion chamber. This will contribute to sooth and smoke out of the exhaust. (and not achieving full power / max torque). I am unsure if the Dutch MOT emission testing is performed when revving the engine, but if that is the case and the EGR is not closing properly when revving, this might very well contribute to failing the test. I would suggest to monitor the live values of commanded and actual EGR position using a Nanocom or other OBD reader while driving to establish if the EGR is working properly or not, before forking out big money on a new DPF. /Mat |
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10th May 2023 3:29pm |
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| BaCoNMX6 Member Since: 22 Apr 2022 Location: Amsterdam Posts: 63
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Cheers Mat,
The test is done at idle so sounds like the EGR wouldn't be the issue. Also car doesnt smoke while revving or anything and has plenty of power with the Alive tune. From what I can work out its either air leak, fuel leak or dpf failed - are there any other systems to think about at idle? |
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10th May 2023 3:54pm |
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| TomB8 Member Since: 17 Nov 2022 Location: West Sussex Posts: 115
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I would have thought the dpf would throw a code if not doing what it is supposed to - it did so on my tdv8. In fact, it did so very rarely, but I decided that as there were isolated cases of a failed egr's causing total engine loss both should be replaced. That took me 2 days, cost over £500 and the old ones seemed fine! No more codes though thankfully.
Found a dpf of eBay in the Netherlands, not cheap but much cheaper than a new one: https://www.ebay.nl/itm/144568663880?hash=...R-Se2uSAYg I am very much hopeful reverting your tune will resolve your issues. I just read an interesting article on Delphi technologies website: making sense of your sensors: dpf differential pressure sensor. Which would suggest that if the dpf wasn't working as it should (it was blocked or had a hole in it) the sensors would pick it up and throw a code, or that the sensors may not be performing as they should. There is a useful guide on how to check the sensors. If you want a link let me know and I'll send when back at my pc. Regards your noise, might be a silly idea, but could you duct tape a mic in various places to identify where the noise is loudest? Obviously not on your exhaust, but you might at least be able to tell what kind of area the noise is coming from. |
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10th May 2023 4:59pm |
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| Ianh Member Since: 17 Sep 2018 Location: Essex Posts: 2004
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I note you have not run a static regeneration via diagnostic tools, I would do this next and then test the emissions after to see if that has brought them into limits.
Just a thought before spending a lot on a New or used DPF. |
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10th May 2023 5:46pm |
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| Dinnu Member Since: 24 Dec 2019 Location: Lija Posts: 3414
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Another question, what is the colour inside your exhaust pipe (of course can only see the last few cms)? With a good working dpf it should remain fairly clean. 1988 90 Hard Top, 19J Diesel Turbo, Shire Blue - Restoration ongoing
2012 90 CSW, 2.2TDCI, Santorini Black |
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10th May 2023 6:05pm |
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| Julie Member Since: 07 Oct 2017 Location: Nantes Posts: 484 
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What do you mean by EURO4 ? You cannot check PN (particule number) on EURO4 type approved cars because it's not part of the type approval. Results will be far beyond the limits... Make sure that your car is equipped with DPF because MY 2014 EURO4 Defenders do exist (e.g. Australian) Check if pressure sensor is installed ... No pressure sensor = no DPF = test procedure for older cars without counting particulate matter |
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10th May 2023 7:50pm |
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| hornet Member Since: 04 Jan 2010 Location: Western Europe Posts: 361 |
It is remarkable that the cleaning procedure for the injectors had a direct influence on the number of particles. For me, this would be the first starting point, namely a test of the proper functioning of the injectors.
All provided that the vehicle has been registered with guaranteed particulate emissions. As mentioned above. It is off topic, but I am really happy to own a MY10 |
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11th May 2023 6:28am |
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