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Martin H. Lee



Member Since: 21 Oct 2011
Location: Surrey
Posts: 15

United Kingdom 
wheel spacer safety issue?
Expect that the wheel spacer cause mechnical stress to wheel bearings, are there any safety issues related to wheel spacers?

Many thanks Live, Love, Pray
Post #97917 3rd Nov 2011 4:04pm
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LandRoverAnorak



Member Since: 17 Jul 2011
Location: Surrey
Posts: 11324

United Kingdom 
Wheel spacers have been around for a long time now and I can't recall any issues with additional mechanical stress to wheel bearings. I guess the only real safety issue is to make sure they're fitted properly. Darren

110 USW BUILD THREAD - EXPEDITION TRAILER - 200tdi 90 BUILD THREAD - SANKEY TRAILER - IG@landroveranorak

"You came in that thing? You're braver than I thought!" - Princess Leia
Post #97924 3rd Nov 2011 4:25pm
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leeds



Member Since: 28 Dec 2009
Location: West Yorkshire
Posts: 8581

United Kingdom 
MSA run events normally ban the use of wheel spacers. So if fitted you would not normally be allowed to enter your local club RTV event.

Brendan
Post #97940 3rd Nov 2011 5:46pm
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Romadog



Member Since: 07 Jul 2011
Location: Powys
Posts: 1749

Make sure your spacers are Type Approved would be a good start otherwise your insurance maybe void
Post #97950 3rd Nov 2011 6:37pm
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JSG



Member Since: 12 Jul 2007
Location: Berkshire
Posts: 2412

United Kingdom 2011 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 XS CSW Stornoway Grey
Romadog wrote:
Make sure your spacers are Type Approved would be a good start otherwise your insurance maybe void


And make sure your insurance know they are fitted as they would consider them a modification. John

http://www.hampshire4x4response.co.uk

2011 Tdci 110 CSW XS
Post #97968 3rd Nov 2011 7:45pm
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diesel_jim



Member Since: 13 Oct 2008
Location: hiding
Posts: 6093

United Kingdom 2006 Defender 110 Td5 SW Epsom Green
I have a set that I sometimes fit to the 110. It certainly looks better with them on, however I always end up with the wheel wobble on the front sometimes; my swivel preload is fine, TRE's, panhard rod etc, which is strange.

And when they're fitted, I always have this niggling feeling that when I hoof it around a bend, I'm "overloading" something....maybe I'm just thinking too much into it with a mechanical-sympathy head on Laughing


alas, nothing has broken off, and like was said, thousands of others use them with no problem.
Post #97969 3rd Nov 2011 8:14pm
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twopoint6khz



Member Since: 18 Aug 2011
Location: North Lakes
Posts: 654

United Kingdom 2005 Defender 110 Td5 CSW Java Black
Assuming they're properly aligned they put no more stress on your bearings than wheels of the same offset, e.g. modulars. There are more nuts to come undone though.
Post #97976 3rd Nov 2011 9:00pm
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jst



Member Since: 14 Jan 2008
Location: Taunton
Posts: 8035

 2011 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 USW Stornoway Grey
twopoint6khz wrote:
Assuming they're properly aligned they put no more stress on your bearings than wheels of the same offset, e.g. modulars. There are more nuts to come undone though.


true.

if you run spacers combined with a large offset rim then you can get bearing issues.

worse case is large offset, large tyre and then spacers. the further the load is from the kingpin the worse the effect on the bearings and scrub turn Cheers

James
110 2012 XS Utility
130 2011 M57 bespoke Camper
90 2010 Hardtop
90 M57 1988 Hardtop
Post #97979 3rd Nov 2011 9:03pm
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Martin H. Lee



Member Since: 21 Oct 2011
Location: Surrey
Posts: 15

United Kingdom 
jst wrote:
twopoint6khz wrote:
Assuming they're properly aligned they put no more stress on your bearings than wheels of the same offset, e.g. modulars. There are more nuts to come undone though.


true.

if you run spacers combined with a large offset rim then you can get bearing issues.

worse case is large offset, large tyre and then spacers. the further the load is from the kingpin the worse the effect on the bearings and scrub turn



I don't intend to use big tyres and negative offset and spacers together.
I am thinking of stock alloy wheel and spacer with 235s or 255s for reducing turning circle and for stable looks.
By the way, if I use Zu alloy wheels, how much more negative offset I can get than stock alloy wheels? Live, Love, Pray
Post #98000 3rd Nov 2011 11:16pm
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Martin H. Lee



Member Since: 21 Oct 2011
Location: Surrey
Posts: 15

United Kingdom 
Romadog wrote:
Make sure your spacers are Type Approved would be a good start otherwise your insurance maybe void


I didn't think about the insurrance issues. Good point.
Then alloy wheels, such as Zu alloy wheels, which has more negative offset than stock alloy, they also can cause problem too?

Cheers
Martin Live, Love, Pray
Post #98001 3rd Nov 2011 11:21pm
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blackwolf



Member Since: 03 Nov 2009
Location: South West England
Posts: 17391

United Kingdom 2007 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 DCPU Stornoway Grey
As stated above, wheel spacers won't affect your wheelbearings any more or any less than wheels with an equivalent changed offset. It is just another of those urban legends that they will.

Unless you opt for a very thick spacer or hugely different offset wheel, the increased loadings on the suspension components should be negligible.

The only aspect of the steering geometry that will be affected is the 'scrub radius', which is a function of the steering axis inclination and camber angle. The scrub radius is the distance between the point at which a line drawn through the centres of the top and bottom swivel pins instersects with the ground, and the line along which a plane through the rotational centre of the tyre intersects with the ground (which is generally outboard of the steering axis interstection point).

The scrub radius will increase if the tyre is moved outwards, either by use of a spacer or by use of a wheel with reduced (ie "more negative") offset. However, the scrub radius will decrease is a larger diameter tyre is fitted without changing the offset, since the act of raising the axle further from the ground will move the intersection point of the steering axis and ground plane outwards. Fitting a wider tyre of the same diameter to a wheel of the same offset won't affect the scrub radius at all, since the increase in tyre with is shared equally on either side of the rim.

The result of this is that fitting spacers and larger tyres will actually affect the steering geometry less than fitting spacers without fitting larger tyres.

The effect of increasing the scrub radius is that the vehicle will be more affected by changes and irregularities in the road surface; for eample, it may be more prone to 'tramlining' in lorry-ruts on motorways, more prone to a wobble when crossing white lines; that sort of thing. When I bought my 07 DC it had 285/75s already fitted on standard Boosts without spacers, and I fitted 30mm spacers as soon as I reasonably could (principally because the turning circle was unbelievable!). I found that the steering performance and handling improved afterwards.

One thing to bear in mind with spacers, especially thin ones, is that the hub/wheel interface may not be as strong as before, and this is probably the area of most concern (and the reason why spacers are not allowed in motorsport). For the spacer to work, the spacer must be bolted to the original wheelstuds and the the wheel bolted to studs fixed in the spacer. Therefore (a) the spacer must be of adequate strength/thickness to mount the new studs securely, and (b) the spacer must be think enough to accomodate the full length of the original wheel-studs AND the thickness of the nuts holding it to the original studs within the thickness of the spacer. With thin spacers, there is relatively little material left to secure the spacer after it has been counterbored to accomodate the nut. I don't believe that any reputable manufacturer makes spacers for LRs which are less than 30mm, and this is the reason.

There is no reason why any of the nuts should ever come loose. There is another urban legend that says the nuts should be threadlocked, but this is not a good idea. If the threads are kept clean with just a hint of copper-grease, and the nuts are torqued correctly, the nuts will not loosen.

Many insurance companies will frown upon the use of spacers and it is not clear why. It may be that they are too ignorant to understand them fully, or more likely they have stats whcih show that cars with spacers fitted are more likely to be involved in accidents than those without, which is probably true in the case of the Corsa-Kiddies but not 4WDs. A specialist insurer should be OK with them.
Post #98036 4th Nov 2011 10:28am
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jst



Member Since: 14 Jan 2008
Location: Taunton
Posts: 8035

 2011 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 USW Stornoway Grey
blackwolf wrote:
As stated above, wheel spacers won't affect your wheelbearings any more or any less than wheels with an equivalent changed offset. It is just another of those urban legends that they will.

Unless you opt for a very thick spacer or hugely different offset wheel, the increased loadings on the suspension components should be negligible.

The only aspect of the steering geometry that will be affected is the 'scrub radius', which is a function of the steering axis inclination and camber angle. The scrub radius is the distance between the point at which a line drawn through the centres of the top and bottom swivel pins instersects with the ground, and the line along which a plane through the rotational centre of the tyre intersects with the ground (which is generally outboard of the steering axis interstection point).

The scrub radius will increase if the tyre is moved outwards, either by use of a spacer or by use of a wheel with reduced (ie "more negative") offset. However, the scrub radius will decrease is a larger diameter tyre is fitted without changing the offset, since the act of raising the axle further from the ground will move the intersection point of the steering axis and ground plane outwards. Fitting a wider tyre of the same diameter to a wheel of the same offset won't affect the scrub radius at all, since the increase in tyre with is shared equally on either side of the rim.

The result of this is that fitting spacers and larger tyres will actually affect the steering geometry less than fitting spacers without fitting larger tyres.

The effect of increasing the scrub radius is that the vehicle will be more affected by changes and irregularities in the road surface; for eample, it may be more prone to 'tramlining' in lorry-ruts on motorways, more prone to a wobble when crossing white lines; that sort of thing. When I bought my 07 DC it had 285/75s already fitted on standard Boosts without spacers, and I fitted 30mm spacers as soon as I reasonably could (principally because the turning circle was unbelievable!). I found that the steering performance and handling improved afterwards.

One thing to bear in mind with spacers, especially thin ones, is that the hub/wheel interface may not be as strong as before, and this is probably the area of most concern (and the reason why spacers are not allowed in motorsport). For the spacer to work, the spacer must be bolted to the original wheelstuds and the the wheel bolted to studs fixed in the spacer. Therefore (a) the spacer must be of adequate strength/thickness to mount the new studs securely, and (b) the spacer must be think enough to accomodate the full length of the original wheel-studs AND the thickness of the nuts holding it to the original studs within the thickness of the spacer. With thin spacers, there is relatively little material left to secure the spacer after it has been counterbored to accomodate the nut. I don't believe that any reputable manufacturer makes spacers for LRs which are less than 30mm, and this is the reason.

There is no reason why any of the nuts should ever come loose. There is another urban legend that says the nuts should be threadlocked, but this is not a good idea. If the threads are kept clean with just a hint of copper-grease, and the nuts are torqued correctly, the nuts will not loosen.

Many insurance companies will frown upon the use of spacers and it is not clear why. It may be that they are too ignorant to understand them fully, or more likely they have stats whcih show that cars with spacers fitted are more likely to be involved in accidents than those without, which is probably true in the case of the Corsa-Kiddies but not 4WDs. A specialist insurer should be OK with them.


good answer, very clear and informative. Cheers

James
110 2012 XS Utility
130 2011 M57 bespoke Camper
90 2010 Hardtop
90 M57 1988 Hardtop
Post #98134 4th Nov 2011 8:45pm
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blackwolf



Member Since: 03 Nov 2009
Location: South West England
Posts: 17391

United Kingdom 2007 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 DCPU Stornoway Grey
jst wrote:


good answer, very clear and informative.


Thanks! I try my best. Thumbs Up
Post #98172 4th Nov 2011 11:55pm
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Martin H. Lee



Member Since: 21 Oct 2011
Location: Surrey
Posts: 15

United Kingdom 
All replies thank you very much indeed Thumbs Up Thumbs Up Live, Love, Pray
Post #98173 5th Nov 2011 2:24am
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ZeDefender



Member Since: 15 Sep 2011
Location: Munich
Posts: 4731

Germany 2011 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 SW Baltic Blue
Re: wheel spacer safety issue?
Martin H. Lee wrote:
Expect that the wheel spacer cause mechnical stress to wheel bearings, are there any safety issues related to wheel spacers?

Many thanks

Glad Blackwolf has confirmed what Matzker (German LR tuning specialists) told me Thumbs Up
I have top-quality 3cm (each side) spacers and everything else standard (Boost with 235s).
The steering stops were adjusted and the turning circle is massively improved. I drive around underground car parks a lot, and the spacers mean I can park in (relatively) normal spaces. Look cool too Wink
Without them, I scraped a few pillars with my "pillar sliders" and failed to park - very embarrassing Embarassed
Matt Tell someone you love them today because life is short.
But shout it at them in German because life is also terrifying and confusing...
Post #98177 5th Nov 2011 7:44am
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