 | Home > Maintenance & Modifications > I think I made a mess, need help with Lights |
 
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| LandRoverAnorak Member Since: 17 Jul 2011 Location: Surrey Posts: 11324  
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Wow, you've got a lot going on there. First thing's first - did it all work (barring the fog light that you've mentioned elsewhere) before you started? That's just to narrow down whether it's something you've done or some other unspecified earlier fault.
It's difficult to know where to start with this but I'd suggest that there are at least two separate problems - indicators (blinkers) and everything else. Broadly speaking, the indicators won't work correctly unless they're all connected. The flash rate is determined by the load of the bulbs. However, that's also complicated by your change to LED units. Typically, they don't apply enough load to make the flasher relay work properly and the solution is usually to fit an adjustable relay that can be tuned to suit. Alternatively, you can fit load resistors to each lamp to mimic the originals. For everything else, you really need to get hold of a wiring diagram and make sure that everything is connected as it should be. Soldering the old bullet connectors shouldn't be a problem in itself, although is probably not ideal for future maintenance, but won't help if the connections are wrong. There's no easy fix other than working your way methodically through every connection to be sure that they're correct. The only other thing that might help is to know that sidelights should work at all times but brake, fog and reverse require the ignition to be on and in the case of fog lights, the headlights to also be switched on. Good luck! Darren 110 USW BUILD THREAD - EXPEDITION TRAILER - 200tdi 90 BUILD THREAD - SANKEY TRAILER - IG@landroveranorak "You came in that thing? You're braver than I thought!" - Princess Leia |
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28th Jul 2022 6:28am |
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| Dinnu Member Since: 24 Dec 2019 Location: Lija Posts: 3431  
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As LRA stated, the indicator relay need load to work (42watts each side plus the repeater, another 5W?). Infact when one front or rear bulb is out, the remaining bulbs, at 21+5W will flash a lot faster. When there is no load, it will not flash at all. 1988 90 Hard Top, 19J Diesel Turbo, Shire Blue - Restoration ongoing
2012 90 CSW, 2.2TDCI, Santorini Black |
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28th Jul 2022 7:49am |
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| geobloke Member Since: 06 Nov 2012 Location: Nottinghamshire Posts: 4410
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As above with the flasher issue. Get them all installed and find yourself an adjustable flasher relay like this one
https://www.paddockspares.com/adjustable-flasher-relay.html As for the brake and side/marker lights. As your Defender is a pre-300tdi the original light units would have earthed through the light unit itself (the copper flat connector within the light) to the body panel. The standard earth points on older 90s are via bullet connectors behind the wing inner skin. They are notorious for corrosion and creating intermittent earth issues. The easiest solution to this problem is to add a dedicated earth from the back of the lights to the chassis/body. One per corner and you'll never had a problem again. I had a horrid time in my 1992 D90 with random lights and it all came down to this problem. The fact that you have moved to LED light units means that there is no longer a light to body earth route, you will have to add your own. Hope that helps. |
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28th Jul 2022 8:20am |
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| Rabbitwabbit Member Since: 31 Mar 2021 Location: Blackpool Posts: 38 
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Also remember that LED's are 'directional' - which means they need to be inserted into the bulb holder the right way around. If you look at the LED bulb, the anode has the longer filament wire - and hence needs to connect to the positive 'side' of the bulb holder. If you get them the wrong way around they'll drive you nuts for months!! I also agree that you certainly require the variable LED flasher unit to introduce some resistence into the circuit. If you decide to tow with the vehicle, then I'd also recommend an LED trailer board - as old filament bulbs can also play havoc with your nicely set up LED lights!! (Weird stuff happens like all your indicators come on and stay on - or your brake lights flash etc., etc..) ----------------------------------------------
1997 Land Rover 110 1981 Range Rover Monteverdi Design Study 1974 Range Rover 1959 Series 2 (Now sold) 1971 Range Rover (Now sold) 1973 Lightweight (Now sold) 1981 Range Rover 4 door (Now sold) 1957 Series 1 LWB (Now sold) 1973 Range Rover (Now sold) |
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28th Jul 2022 2:27pm |
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| Soulrider911 Member Since: 04 Jul 2022 Location: California Posts: 108  
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Thank you everyone for the help. I really appreciate it. To answer some questions:
1) Yes everything worked prior to this work, aside from my rear fog lights did not - however I found the red yellow wire for it. 2) I do have an adjustable LED flasher relay. 3) I have a wiring diagram and have been referring to it often, according to it positive wires are connected correctly. 4) My guess here is it's a grounding issue. As mentioned all the original bulbs, aside from backup lights get earthed to the car. The sporadic behavior I am getting is almost like there is feedback traveling to the lights. For example when in reverse the number plate illuminates not the backup light... Also if I wanted to earth these lights I would just be splitting the negative and running an additional to the frame/chassis. These are sealed and only have pos neg coming out o the backs of them. I have attached a photo of the LEDs I used. There are super common, and there is even a video on youtube of a guy installing in a Defender similar year to mine with no issues and he does not mention re-earthing the lights. ----------- One last question... I think I might have some incorrect fuses but they are so old I can't even read them. Mine have the glass 1" fuese. Are they fast blow? does anyone know? -----------  Click image to enlarge Thank you all 1989 Defender 90 2022 Defender 110 SE DIY’er | Always learning |
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28th Jul 2022 2:57pm |
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| LandRoverAnorak Member Since: 17 Jul 2011 Location: Surrey Posts: 11324
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In that case, yes - make new connections to the earths to each light. You can group them together behind each cluster and then make one connection to somewhere convenient. Darren
110 USW BUILD THREAD - EXPEDITION TRAILER - 200tdi 90 BUILD THREAD - SANKEY TRAILER - IG@landroveranorak "You came in that thing? You're braver than I thought!" - Princess Leia |
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28th Jul 2022 3:46pm |
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| Soulrider911 Member Since: 04 Jul 2022 Location: California Posts: 108
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Made a little progress. Blinkers work, but when one comes on all comes on. Interesting as I’m using a specific relay to account for resistance. I did test some of the grounds as if I’m right many of them are no good.
I’m thinking of running a solid ground direct from the batter to the 4 corners of the car. Is there any reason not to do that? Battery ground is even better than the frame right? Thanks 1989 Defender 90 2022 Defender 110 SE DIY’er | Always learning |
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29th Jul 2022 5:09am |
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| MichaelE Member Since: 18 Jan 2020 Location: Crawley West Sussex Posts: 155 
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When you think that you've got everything working you may find that all your indicators flash when selecting left or right turn. Or they may not, if you're lucky. It's a known issue with complete LED replacements which I'm not going in to here because I've just come off a long stressful night shift and I want to go to bed.
There are supposed fixes involving the flashing indicator light on the instrument panel which might work but didn't with me. The known fix is to refit standard side repeater flashers with standard filament bulbs. It's all to do with the lower resistance of LED lights and how the instrument panel warning flasher functions. I'm off to bed now. |
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29th Jul 2022 6:32am |
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| geobloke Member Since: 06 Nov 2012 Location: Nottinghamshire Posts: 4410
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When it comes to low power items like LED lights then a chassis earth is more the sufficient. The key is to make sure the battery/engine/gearbox/bulkhead to chassis earth straps are perfectly clean and once reassembled smear some water resistant contact grease. This way once done they will remain that way regardless of weather etc. When it comes to HIGH power items such as winches then a dedicated +ve and -ve all the way from the battery to the winch is essential. A bad earth on a winch can cause all kinds of problems. In my case the winch earthed through the handbrake cable fusing it solid, preventing me from releasing it and in the middle of nowhere. Not ideal. Since then my winch has had a dedicated circuit. If you still want to run dedicated earths from the battery to the front and rear of the vehicle for the lights then two wires run along the chassis rails (or within if you are keen) then from one side to the other. That will cut down on wire lengths needed. As for the connectors you can use the original bullet style connectors, but I would advise for longevity sake sourcing some sealed econoseal style connectors. Such as these https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/271674203749?ha...BM_L3BkMlg |
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29th Jul 2022 8:23am |
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| geobloke Member Since: 06 Nov 2012 Location: Nottinghamshire Posts: 4410
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So to your indicator problem. When fitting LED lights to older 90/110/Defenders it has been noted that occasionally the trailer wiring can cause problems if dirty or worn. But, as you have an older Defender it is likely to be leakage of voltage through your dash indicator lamp. The feed for the dash warning light has two feeds, one from the left and one from the right. When you indicate right voltage is making its way through to the dash bulb and then on to the left indicators. It is a fairly well known issue. To check absolutely whether this is the problem unscrew the dash warning light panel. Locate the indicator dash light and remove it (not the trailer light). If this is the problem then the removal of the bulb (which breaks the circuit) will cure your indicator problem. The solution is this https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/RDX-Earth-Fix-K...mp;mkevt=1 |
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29th Jul 2022 8:59am |
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| blackwolf Member Since: 03 Nov 2009 Location: South West England Posts: 17480 
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The risk with installing additional earths especially when using small cable is that if the main earth fails it is reasonably likely that an electrical fire will result. With a single earth adequate for all electrical loads, failure of the earth usually stops the vehicle. If, however, there are alternatives earth paths then the full charge or discharge current (which can be in the order of 100A) will take the alternative path.
This is the reason why throttle and handbrake cables in the old days would overheat and melt if the engine earth strap broke. Personally if I add an earth strap I tend to use 35mm^2 or 50mm^2 cable if there is any possibility of it becoming and earth shunt for the alternator, starter, or winch. |
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29th Jul 2022 9:06am |
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| Soulrider911 Member Since: 04 Jul 2022 Location: California Posts: 108
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Thank you so much for all your help friends!
Yes, all the blinkers coming on can be reconciled by putting an incandescent in the side markers on the front. Which is great, and also ironic considering the flasher relay I am using is marketed as "all you need" LOL So, I ordered 2 load resistors I can inline to see if that reconciles the multi-flash OR thanks to geobloke, it could be the bulb in the dash which I will check today. So that is great because seems the blinkers can be solved. Next up is figuring out why I have some odd lighting issues going on... which I am now discovering were in place before I started this LED like: - When headlight hi / low beams are on the front side markers go off - When in reverse Right rear backup illuminates and the number plate Will report back what I find today. I will be so glad to get this reconciled. Much appreciate all your help 1989 Defender 90 2022 Defender 110 SE DIY’er | Always learning |
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29th Jul 2022 4:28pm |
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| MichaelE Member Since: 18 Jan 2020 Location: Crawley West Sussex Posts: 155
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I tried this RDX Earth Fix and it didn't fix mine. Hence why I said about refitting standard side repeaters with bulbs, which did fix it.
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29th Jul 2022 10:35pm |
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| Soulrider911 Member Since: 04 Jul 2022 Location: California Posts: 108
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Thought I would give you all an update. So made some good progress. Ver carefully drilled holes and got all the rear lights in.
I REALLY did not want to drill BIG holes for the 95mm backup lights. However, if you drill the plinth you end up with very little material for the screw to press up against. So using the plinth and some measurements I 3d printed a cutting template that doubled as inner support so I could avoid drilling the body and it worked perfectly! Click image to enlarge Click image to enlarge Next up I finally verified my rear grounds are total garbage. The left blinker was very faint, I ran a testing ground to a clean spot on the body, bright as ever. So going to redo the grounds. Lastly the blinkers, I removed the indicator bulb as recommended, and sure enough, the blinkers work perfectly. I might just make my own grounded bulb for the indicator light and see if that solves it. Click image to enlarge Looks so much better, and you might be wondering why I don't have a red fog light. Here in the states, we don't have a use for it, and I am all about bright backup lights  .
Click image to enlarge 1989 Defender 90 2022 Defender 110 SE DIY’er | Always learning |
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30th Jul 2022 12:20am |
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