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| Farmerben Member Since: 16 Jan 2017 Location: Herefordshire Posts: 605   
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TBF Supacat, you do seem to have a bit of an obsession in proving the Defender is a flop.
 https://instagram.com/bentheoandrews |
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5th Nov 2021 10:13am |
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| Supacat Member Since: 16 Oct 2012 Location: West Yorkshire Posts: 11018 
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Hey my "obsession" is to try and fact check the words ~ in JLR's case with the new Defender, I collate the figures and post them up here to see if a reasonable person can match the two?
Other than personal attacks, I can't see anyone mounting an argument that the figures do support the superlatives being thrown around. Can you deconstruct all the words around "higher margin" and not end up in plain speaking English with "paying more for less"...how do you drive that model? #hype... |
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5th Nov 2021 10:22am |
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| nowrxo Member Since: 10 Sep 2015 Location: None Posts: 79 
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They do have a point. Take this graph for example:
 Click image to enlarge You use this to claim that the sales of the new Defender are behind where sales would be had the old Defender continued in production. What's your source for the sales figures for the new Defender? How do you know they would have continued like that? You show them going up at the same rate from 2016 right up to 2022. You don't account for the pandemic, which would have reduced sales in early/mid-2020, when dealers were in the main part closed and very few cars were being sold. You don't account for anything else that could affect sales. JLR's own press release cites sales in 2020 as being 23.9% down on those in 2019. Source: https://media.jaguarlandrover.com/news/202...020-china. But that's not in your graph. Consequently it's not particularly useful as a comparison, which also calls into question everything else you say. Perhaps the figures don't support the superlatives being thrown around. But they don't support your doom and gloom scenario either. As is usually the case, reality lies between the two. You evidently have an agenda, which makes it hard to take you seriously. You complain about "personal attacks" (getting a bit defensive, perhaps?), but are quite happy to call people "slow". |
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5th Nov 2021 11:07am |
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| leeloo Member Since: 31 Mar 2021 Location: Bereldange Posts: 40 
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There is very simple explanation for that , they do not manufacture any other model but defender. I tried to order a Disco 5 and they flat out refuse to take the order, they were trying to force me to buy one of the most expensive version and even than I would have to wait 9 to 12 months.. JLR right now is in the worst spot in this supply chain  .
And it should not have been like that for 2 reasons : It is a luxury brand, more margin per unit, and also more price flexibility , so they could have done some things. They are also a very low volume brand . With a bit of effort and extra bidding is easier to get a supplier to deliver what you need. It is one thing to sneak in an order of 15 k of parts that you miss and another thing convince a supplier to jump the queue with 300k, like one of the big ones need to do. And all the people like me that they refused to even take the orders, they will remember how they were treated. How they have the same CEO and board is beyond me. It will be said to see JLR going the way of SAAB.. another very special quirky brand that I loved.. Defender P300 on order |
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5th Nov 2021 11:58am |
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| RDR Member Since: 27 Apr 2018 Location: Derbyshire Posts: 592
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I ordred a new D5 a month ago just before the new model year announcements. Been a nightmare locking things down. Its a 3.0l HSE dynamic with options so I was hoping it would get some kind of priority but from the tone of messaging im getting the MY22 I ordered will not be a MY23 it will be an MY24
That said its not just JLR, I ordered a replacement for our current EV the same week. A Taycan Cross Turismo. Getting exactly the same problem with Porsche. 110 MY23.5 X Dynamic HSE RR MY23 HSE PHEV D5 MY19 HSE - Now Sold D4 MY16 HSE Luxury - Now Sold D4 MY12 HSE - Gone D3 MY06 S - Gone but not forgotten |
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5th Nov 2021 12:15pm |
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| Supacat Member Since: 16 Oct 2012 Location: West Yorkshire Posts: 11018
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If your dog's a bit bigger... Click image to enlarge LUDEN Automotive (@LUDENClassics) Tweeted: Spotted this yesterday on my way back from getting the Jag. Looked fantastic. @LandRover_UK can you please please please make more bright colours an opinion (specifically yellow, because it’s the best). https://t.co/1yo188W0gO https://twitter.com/LUDENClassics/status/1456213187964112907?s=20 |
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5th Nov 2021 2:03pm |
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| Farmerben Member Since: 16 Jan 2017 Location: Herefordshire Posts: 605
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None of your figures actually prove that the new Defender hasn't sold well. There's an awful lot of variables that make comparing the last 18 months with any other year - we've heard that sales of new vehicles in the UK haven't been lower since 1991. Yes they're prioritising high margin models (what company with shareholders wouldn't with limited capacity?). Yes the higher spec Defenders offer poor value over the Discovery but there's obviously demand there for them to prioritise Defenders over all other models and still have wait lists of 12months+. Be no point just building Defenders if nobody wanted one. https://instagram.com/bentheoandrews |
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5th Nov 2021 5:32pm |
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| Supacat Member Since: 16 Oct 2012 Location: West Yorkshire Posts: 11018
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5th Nov 2021 5:43pm |
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| Supacat Member Since: 16 Oct 2012 Location: West Yorkshire Posts: 11018
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Not my figures ~ JLR's...
Using your logic, that doesn't prove new vehicles haven't sold well. 
For a wait list to be real, they have to be selling that exact product ~ if they decide to not build it, then you can hardly say you are in a queue. 32,000 new Defender orders on the books and wholesaling 16k a quarter ~ do the maths... anything else is just a potential customer being messed around. Not forgetting that 32k orders are only there due to shortages in the supply chain, if JLR had the chips/other items in the last 12 months then this "backlog" would be significantly lower. |
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5th Nov 2021 5:52pm |
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| umbertob Member Since: 21 Jun 2020 Location: Altadena, CA Posts: 133 
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Time for you to put all these words into a nice graph, to finish proving my point.
[RANT MODE] The pervasiveness of gloomy threads such as this one and the "glass is always gonna be half empty when it comes to the new Defender" attitude, combined with an insufferably patronizing tone from a small but VERY vocal group of people who have absolutely nothing useful to contribute to this enthusiasts forum, will manipulate or arbitrarily analyze data to prove their laughably opinionated and questionable points, and most likely have never driven - and will never drive - a new Defender, is the reason why I hardly stop by or post here anymore. Sucks, because some of these UK based LR forums truly were great. A few of us may remember the original rrs.co.uk, circa 2005, at least until I left in 2012 when I sold the Sport and got my LR4... That forum was fantastic, chock full of members with a positive outlook on the brand new Sport, eager to contribute things that mattered to other enthusiasts, proudly sharing their experiences, their trips, their finds, their mods. Nobody gave two s**ts about quarterly sales numbers, trends and targets or, if we did, they did not dictate our views and opinion of the car we had purchased, or of the company making it. We just loved that car, and yet the Sport was every bit as controversial as the new Defender, and looked like a major gamble and an iffy proposition at launch, an overpriced Disco3 in drags (which it kind-of was, lol) that RR elites and grizzlied Disco owners both scoffed at and hated. Judging solely by the amount of enthusiasm displayed by several friends, fellow local LR club members and newly minted Defender owners, and even random strangers at gas stations wanting to know how I like it and giving me the thumbs up at a stoplight or on a trail in Death Valley, I do think the new Defender will age well and become a similarly successful, pivotal vehicle in LR's history. So, I hate coming here and getting even seemingly good press - such as the Defender being LR's best selling vehicle last quarter, which is kind of exciting and noteworthy regardless of the surrounding circumstances - dissected by the resident crew of party poopers and turned into the usual "It sounds good but is really another bit of terrible news for the Defender, and it's only gonna get worse after the chips do this, the pre-orders vaporize and the backlog does the other thing. Trust me, I know better than all of you sheep, unwashed masses, ignorant press, fake reviewers, inflated sales numbers, biased industry types, even your own eyes. Just look at my graphs." There is good info to be found here and there, but it's buried under hundreds of threads of mud like some of the above captioned samples, posted with the sole apparent purpose of making owners - and often new Land Rover customers, which we should all welcome with open arms - feel bad about their new Defender and Land Rover in general. Some enthusiast forum. [/RANT MODE] 2020 NAS Defender 110 HSE 5-seater / Silver / Khaki / Black Pack / Black Roof / Satin Film / Cold Pack / Off-Road Pack / Advanced OR Pack / Comfort + Convenience Pack / Sirius + HD radio / HUD / Meridian Surround Last edited by umbertob on 6th Nov 2021 3:26am. Edited 3 times in total |
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5th Nov 2021 9:25pm |
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| JackW Member Since: 09 Jan 2017 Location: Roswell, Georgia Posts: 115 
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After talking to Ralph Sarek who has towed his 19' Airstream (4000 lbs loaded) across the country and back with his four cylinder Defender 90, I have a whole new appreciation for these new trucks. I haven't towed anything nearly that heavy with my P300 110 but after seeing Ralph's experience with it I won't have any reservations about towing with mine.
Click image to enlarge |
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5th Nov 2021 10:18pm |
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| whiterdesign Member Since: 10 Jun 2021 Location: Preston Posts: 269
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Umbertob, totally agree I can’t understand why some people are on this forum, they just seem to be here to just say that Jeeps and Broncos are better and that land rovers are a load of
. 110 XS 250 MY 23 Gondwana Stone, Cold climate pack and towbar |
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5th Nov 2021 11:30pm |
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| JackW Member Since: 09 Jan 2017 Location: Roswell, Georgia Posts: 115
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I agree - I don't go on Jeep or Bronco forums to talk trash (don't want to get any on me I guess). I grew up in the sixties and had friends with all varieties of four wheel drives from that era. I've driven them all and just found that I really like Land Rovers best, a good thing since I've owned 20 of them from a Series 1 to the latest Defender and while I have my favorites (Series IIA's specifically) most people wouldn't want to daily drive one of those for very long. I have and will continue to drive them as long as I live but my Range Rover Classics, the Discovery 1, 3, & 5, old Defender 90 and the new Defender are all nice vehicles with tremendous capability. I've put over 300,000 miles behind the wheel of Series IIA Land Rovers and I really appreciate the new Defender for its combination of comfort and capability. I drive my older Defender 90 frequently and love to show Jeeps how easily it tackles terrain. I don't go on their forums to bust their chops though.
Click image to enlarge I was very impressed watching Addison's new 110 tackling obstacles at Uwharrie a couple of weeks ago - it might spin a tire for a second or two but then it figures it out and just goes. Click image to enlarge |
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6th Nov 2021 12:08am |
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| Supacat Member Since: 16 Oct 2012 Location: West Yorkshire Posts: 11018
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It would seem your good news story is right out of this playbook: Click image to enlarge And as far as this comment goes:
Just remember I never commented on Naks posting ~ it was YOU that initiated my post and so apparently invited the very thing that you say you don't come here for! Maybe pause and think a little more before you post next time? Last edited by Supacat on 6th Nov 2021 10:22am. Edited 1 time in total |
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6th Nov 2021 8:32am |
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