 | Home > INEOS Grenadier > Main Grenadier discussion thread |
 
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| Philip Member Since: 09 Mar 2018 Location: England Posts: 510  
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If that’s all you want from it, I’m sure it will be great.
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21st Oct 2021 5:01pm |
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| ChasingOurTrunks Member Since: 19 Aug 2020 Location: Canada Posts: 89 |
Philip that's my point -- that's all most people who are likely to buy the Grenadier want from a vehicle like this. That's why many folks are not terribly happy with the 83 ECUs of the New Defender, or the cast-aluminum wishbones front and rear, or the complicated air suspension, or the unibody construction, or the in-bumper radiators of the P-400 that mean even a small animal strike is the end of the trip.
We wanted a vehicle that was simple and robust. Ineos made one. What is missing in what this vehicle "should" or "could" be? And again - what are the alternatives that can do the same job for half the price? You've mentioned that a couple of times and I've checked briefly over in the European markets but I'm still unable to find any examples of things that do the same things the Gren can for half the price. |
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21st Oct 2021 5:35pm |
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| Fellrunner Member Since: 28 Sep 2014 Location: Wandering Posts: 257  
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It’s certainly what I wanted from the new ‘Defender’ but felt so badly let down by the replacement. It really isn’t a replacement. This is why I love the, hopefully to live up what it’s being billed to be, Grenadier. It’s everything the Defender should be and what I so wanted. A truly do everything 4x4 and real world daily driver. |
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21st Oct 2021 5:49pm |
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| Philip Member Since: 09 Mar 2018 Location: England Posts: 510
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The reality is that there are good reasons why live axles and separate chassis are consigned to the history books for passenger cars (and why virtually every light commercial vehicle has IFS) - if you don’t need or expect contemporary standards of NVH, handling/roadholding, comfort and safety, then you’ll no doubt be very happy with a Grenadier. A quarter of a century later, it should surely be better than a P38 Range Rover - which is probably as good as anything has been with two solid axles. I also wouldn’t expect a Grenadier to be any less complicated than everything else that also needs to comply with modern emissions and safety standards (eg the powertrains are about as complicated as anything with an internal combustion engine is ever going to get).
Any one-tonne twin-cab (with a canopy, given the Grenadier pick-up doesn’t yet exist) is the obvious direct rival for commercial/business use, unless you’re being extremely specific with your requirements. But for 200kg of payload, a 110 Hard Top will inevitably have a broader spread of on/off-road abilities for similar money. It is not going to be an objective choice for many buyers, business or private. |
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21st Oct 2021 6:09pm |
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| diduan Member Since: 13 Oct 2016 Location: Central Balkan Posts: 260 
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🍿🍿🍿🍻🍻🍻 Defender 110 SW MY2011 2.4tdci decat, no EGR
Jeep Wrangler YJ 1990 4.0. Front 78' Dana 60, Rear CUCV 14 bolt |
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21st Oct 2021 6:22pm |
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| LRSpain004 Member Since: 30 Jun 2020 Location: Elche Posts: 68 
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I agree completely with these comments. The Grenadier is the vehicle LR should have made if they cared about that target market. They clearly don't and thats why they built the car they did.. LR component reliability is awful and the less complicated a vehicle the more attractive it is to me. I had 3 new TD5 Defenders and they were amazing. Ineos will be very successful in that segment IMO.
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21st Oct 2021 6:42pm |
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| ChasingOurTrunks Member Since: 19 Aug 2020 Location: Canada Posts: 89 |
I actually agree with you on IFS for passenger cars. But Live axles have undeniable benefits in hard off-road terrain. The rub here is that for most users of vehicles in general, that's irrelevant because they don't do hard off-road and therefore, an IFS rig would be fine. But there are people who do need a solid axle vehicle, and their options in the market are limited. In an SA vehicle, when you go over ruts or bumps, the whole vehicle lifts. On an IFS vehicle, only the wheel lifts. This means the IFS rig will get hung up more often than the solid axle vehicle, all other things being equal (terrain, tire size, etc.). This doesn't matter for a hobbyist who is taking his DMax to the local off road trail on a weekend jaunt with his buddies, where an occasional recovery is all part of the fun, but for folks who have to drive to or from a remote job site every day over similar terrain (or for companies whose employees are on the clock for travel time), they don't want to spend part of their journey winching and recovering. They want to get to work and get home, and the SA vehicle will do that more consistently. It also tends to be better "bang for the buck" when talking about building a robust undercarriage - solid axles are a bit more straightforward in design and production than typical IFS rigs which need a lot of custom castings of wishbones and such. Not saying it can't be done - the Humvee was IFS/IRS - I'm just saying its a cheaper and quicker route to get strength. Again - most users would be fine with IFS, but in truth most users would be fine with a New Defender; to use your previous comment, the New Defender will carry the storm kettle to the campground just as well as the Ineos. But for the Kingsley Holgates and Halo Trusts or the Horizon Outback Gold Company -- the live axles aren't antiquated technology anymore than a framing square is antiquated technology for carpenters. It's not antiquated, it's the right tool for the job. So, while I would agree that generally, IFS is the way to go for passenger cars, we're not talking about passenger cars -- we're talking about a tool to carry passengers and cargo into remote areas over rough terrain, not a tool to get a suburban parent to the office and to the grocery store and back to the suburbs over fully maintained dry roads in a typical day. As far as complexity, Complexity or Simplicity is not binary, it's a spectrum, and Ineos has said from day one their goal is to as simple and robust as possible while still designing a vehicle for the modern world. It was never going to be the same in every way as a old Series Land Rover - and the target market that Ineos created this thing for didn't want that. We wanted a modern 4x4 that was as simple and robust as possible given the various regulatory framework that exists around the world, and this appears to be as close as anyone has gotten. Its already undoubtedly less complex than it's nearest competition (in my market), which is the New Defender. A simple example -- the Ineos uses a spring to cushion it as it goes over bumps. That's a single point of failure that appears to be fixed with a couple of wrenches. To do the same job of cushioning over bumps, the ND uses an air bag, sensors, a compressor, air lines, and an ECU to control it all that so far, can only be serviced at a dealership. That's many failure points, and a logistical barrier to resuming work. Therefore, it's more complex. I recognize the ND can be had on coils now too, but there are many systems like this throughout it's design -- the wireless key fob is more complex than a key. It's heated and curved windscreen is way more complex than the flat screen of the Gren, which can be fixed by anyone who can cut tempered glass, where the ND requires a specific, complex (to manufacture and ship) part. The Ineo's seats have a lever to slide them back and forth; the ND is all electronic with motors, servos, controls, and computers involved in simply adjusting the seat. I can look underneath the grenadier and see how power gets from the engine to the wheels, and those parts are removable with a few bolts. I can't even see how the New Defender works when I look underneath, so even to get a look at things I'm in for a lot of work removing "skid plates" first (though I'd hesitate to actually "skid" the weight of the ND on them). These are just the things we know for sure that are simpler on the Gren than the ND. I think when we start seeing the Grens "in the flesh" we're likely to see a lot more examples of this simplicity. Very good point about the one-ton dual cab with a canopy (that basically describes my current setup), but that would have to be a full tub-and-tray replacement to be dust proof on par with the Grenadier. The typical fibreglass canopies are very much not dust proof. But, this can be done with a proper full tub replacement with an aluminum deck and canopy -- and that would be a close contender for a lot of people instead of the Ineos. But, in North America, that's not a realistic option -- there are no mid-sized vehicles with a 1 ton payload; the only rigs that have that are HD pickup trucks which are both big and heavy, which are huge disadvantages (in some cases, dealbreakers) off road. Our mid-size "Utes", which are great off road, are typically limited to 1500 lbs and by the time a tray and canopy is installed, it eats up a lot of available payload (well below the ton the Grenadier offers). This is not true in other jurisdictions like Australia though where they do have a bit more capacity, but it is in North America. |
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21st Oct 2021 8:32pm |
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| Muddybigdog Member Since: 11 Apr 2014 Location: Suffolk Posts: 1016 
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Is there trouble at t’ mill, JLR chasing image IP of a vehicle they binned 5 years ago, has someone woke up and spotted they threw the baby out with the bath water. Or perhaps they are scared Kia will prosecute as JLR are shipping a Kia Soul ugly fatter sister. Jumped ship to reliability - Mitsubishi L200
Puma 90 XS - Sold D3 - 2.7 S x2 (both Sold) Freelander 2 HSE - Sold Freelander 1 - Sold Disco 2 - Sold |
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21st Oct 2021 9:15pm |
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| Jabberwocky Member Since: 27 Oct 2021 Location: Luxembourg Posts: 222 
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Saw the Grenadier in the flesh for the first time at the weekend, it’s much better looking than I thought looking at pictures, the bonnet and rear lights aren’t great but overall it’s a good looking vehicle. There were swarms of people looking at it and queuing to have an off road passenger ride. I didn’t spend much time looking at it but it definitely appears to be aimed squarely at Defender enthusiasts.
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27th Oct 2021 11:09am |
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| Prospector Member Since: 08 Jul 2021 Location: Arizona Posts: 17 
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The bonnet may not be pretty, but I think its functionality will service well. When trying to pick the best line on a rocky trail (such as mining trails in Colorado), having low fenders to sight over versus a full width bonnet (several inches higher) will aid negotiating rough tracks. I appreciate Grenadier's design that favors function rather than form. The US is saturated with "Pavement Princess" 4x4 vehicles, also called Soccer Mom SUVs and mall crawlers. It is time for a vehicle built to handle back country trails.
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28th Oct 2021 3:20am |
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| Grenadier Member Since: 23 Jul 2014 Location: The foot of Mont Blanc... Posts: 5804  
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“ The US is saturated with "Pavement Princess" 4x4 vehicles, also called Soccer Mom SUVs and mall crawlers.”
Like the New Defender…  Monsieur Le Grenadier
I've not been everywhere, but it's on my list..... 2011 Puma 110DC - Corris Grey |
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28th Oct 2021 10:41am |
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| ADVAW8S Member Since: 05 Oct 2021 Location: PNW Posts: 28
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There is a host of them. Jeep Wranglers with 5-inch lifts and 22 rims. Ford F 150, Tacoma, Land Crusiers. My SIL has a Bronco on order, fully loaded with 35-inch tires. I asked if she was planning on taking it off-road and her response was I just need it to carry my SUP down a dirt road. I asked if she wanted to wheel with me on some trails in VT and NH. I would drive from PACNW with family She said no thank you, not interested in bouncing around on rocks.
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28th Oct 2021 5:09pm |
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| RobKeay Member Since: 19 Jul 2009 Location: Stafford Posts: 1579 
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There’s a new rival appeared on Twitter and promises to be made in the UK
https://twitter.com/torquespeak/status/1453429889172922382?s=21 |
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28th Oct 2021 7:46pm |
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| zilch Member Since: 11 Sep 2019 Location: Whitsundays & Sydney Posts: 816 
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i would not under estimate the appeal of the Grenadier to the sloanies.. I have no doubt it will also join the list of "must have" accoutrement for a period.. another fashion item.. like the last of the classics yet another pommie bar steward down under
MY20 110 P400 SE Defender MY10 3.0 RR Sport |
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29th Oct 2021 7:13am |
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