 | Home > INEOS Grenadier > Main Grenadier discussion thread |
 
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| Supacat Member Since: 16 Oct 2012 Location: West Yorkshire Posts: 11018   
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So where's the interesting development you referred to?
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20th Oct 2021 6:39pm |
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| Philip Member Since: 09 Mar 2018 Location: England Posts: 510
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As I said - as of 1st October, the 3D form of a Defender is now registered as a trademark for the first time.
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20th Oct 2021 6:45pm |
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| Philip Member Since: 09 Mar 2018 Location: England Posts: 510
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As an aside, when do you expect your Grenadier to be delivered?
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20th Oct 2021 6:59pm |
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| ChasingOurTrunks Member Since: 19 Aug 2020 Location: Canada Posts: 89 |
I think the only embarrassing or shameless thing here is how JLR is behaving, Philip; I know we don't agree on the "is it a rip off or not" thing, but The Grenadier is to the Defender what the F-150 is to the Silverado...of course they look similar, they are intended to do the same kinds of things, but I don't see Ford trying to stop Chevy from selling pickups, nor do I see the Big Three taking Nissan to task for the Titan. And if similar design is an issue, we ought to look at the entire mid-size unibody SUV segment because from more than 50 feet away I would challenge anyone to tell one brand from another; they all look roughly the same in that segment. But I digress -- to my point about why I think it's embarrassing and shameless for JLR to be litigating Ineos, JLR isn't doing themselves any favours here.
I've shared similar thoughts on another forum, but here's the gist of my perspective: The original land rovers were a tool, a tool whose "design" was stolen/borrowed heavily from/sampled/inspired by the American's Willys Jeep. The Willys was like a hammer -- a tool designed to do a job, so it had certain features that were replicated in the original Land Rover which was intended to do a similar job. These tools were used by adventurers, humanitarians, and similar folks during the Golden Age of remote vehicle travel where every trip was a "first". In many cases, a Land Rover was the first automobile that some remote communities ever saw. But the tool was just a tool -- like a hammer or a saw, it's not the tool that is important, but what is created or crafted with it that matters. There are still people who need this tool. Folks who go clear land mines, or give vaccines to innocent kids in the back of beyond, or who are willing to risk life and limb to make a delivery of some mosquito nets -- these legendary people still exist and are still trying to do this work. In many cases, they are doing that work in vehicles that "peaked" in the early 1980s. JLR made the decision that these people do not matter and they made a vehicle that is largely unsuitable for the tasks that these people engage in. They were told this throughout the development of the New Defender; the market wasn't exactly silent on what it needed. That's not to say the new Defender cannot deliver mosquito nets and vaccines -- it can, and it's no secret that I think it's a fantastic car -- but for long-term professional use of this type, the problems with the design are apparent (the need to rely on dealerships for everything being the first of many issues in remote areas and the inability to "bush fix" an array of systems is a huge dealbreaker for a lot of folks). That's well within JLR's right to make that call -- they are welcome to say "We don't care about building a vehicle these people need because there's not enough in it for us" and that is a perfectly reasonable position for a private company to take. But there's still a need for the tool -- and like a hammer, the correct tool for the job is going to have a pretty similar style and shape across the line: a heavy thing on the end of a stick that fits the human hand. Similarly, an off-road utility 4x4 designed for carrying heavy loads into remote places is going to look a certain way - approach angles, solid axles, etc. The Grenadier in this way is as much of a rip off of the Defender as it is of the Jeep's 4x4 system, the G-wagen's front end, or the 70-series rear tailgate. If you sit down to design a tool, certain functional things will keep coming up again and again. The problem (and why I think this is bad form by JLR Corporate) is JLR doesn't think of their cars as tools -- they think they are icons or have some inherent legendary status because of what they are and the badge on the front. But I contend that the Defender (and its' Series ancestors) are not iconic because of the cars themselves; They are iconic because of what people used the cars for. It is the people, the jobs, the adventures that made the "Icons". A red piece of fabric is just a piece of fabric....but tied around the neck of Clark Kent, it becomes something more. That's why I think the behaviour of JLR is pretty poor -- they have chosen to abandon a market that really does need a tool like the old Defender or the Grenadier; it's not that they couldn't make this vehicle, it's that they intentionally chose not to and rather than accept that choice and move on, they are litigating to prevent others from providing a similar tool. This is made far worse because it is this market's activities (adventure, humanitarian work, etc.) that created Land Rover's legendary "adventure ready" reputation to begin with. It is these end users that, if JLR is successful, will ultimately be denied access to a tool. And while JLR might think these folks don't matter, I disagree. I think they represent the best of us, and I think they should have the tools they need to do their important work. |
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20th Oct 2021 7:09pm |
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| Philip Member Since: 09 Mar 2018 Location: England Posts: 510
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We’ll have to disagree - the market for basic, cheap utility vehicles is already well-served (and it’s a very different market from the one in the Land Rover’s heyday).
The Grenadier is just the ultimate lifestyle accessory for the storm-kettle-at-the-campsite brigade - it just also happens to be a brazen facsimile of an old Defender. |
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20th Oct 2021 7:18pm |
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| Supacat Member Since: 16 Oct 2012 Location: West Yorkshire Posts: 11018
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Is that a distraction tactic?
Just tell the truth ~ you saw the trade mark had been registered and were so excited with thinking it would throw a spanner in the works for the Ineos Grenadier, you gleefully posted on this thread without checking the classes. ADVAW8S post has pointed out your error and instead of just coming clean, you've doubled down and are trying to blag your way out of it. Can you answer this: When was the 1st, and 2nd time the 3D form of a Defender was rejected as a trademark in the classes that count: class 12 (Vehicles; motor vehicles, etc) & class 37 (Conversion, repair, etc)? JLR lost the case ~ twice and you have to wonder if it does not add insult to injury that the judge allowed them to have key fobs, mouse mats, mobile phone covers, balloons and Xmas decorations. Perhaps the judge had owned a JLR product and knew exactly where their engineering expertise was best applied? |
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20th Oct 2021 7:22pm |
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| Philip Member Since: 09 Mar 2018 Location: England Posts: 510
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Distraction tactic? Surely Ratcliffe’s most servile cheerleader is putting his money where his mouth is?
I’m aware of how IP works. This is the first instance of the old Defender’s 3D form actually being trademarked. As I said. Reality is that the Grenadier’s design is a blatant rip-off of the old Defender - it is obviously intended to be, I cannot see how an argument to the contrary can be made. Last edited by Philip on 20th Oct 2021 7:48pm. Edited 1 time in total |
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20th Oct 2021 7:39pm |
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| Bluest Member Since: 23 Apr 2016 Location: Lancashire Posts: 4208 
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I don’t think we need the insults. This forum is better than that. 2007 110 TDCi Station Wagon XS
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20th Oct 2021 7:46pm |
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| ChasingOurTrunks Member Since: 19 Aug 2020 Location: Canada Posts: 89 |
Happy to agree to disagree Philip! World would be a boring place if everyone saw eye to eye all the time! But on this case, I don't think the cheap utility market is well served. There are certainly a lot of options, but in 20 years of car-buying, I've not once had a vehicle that checked all my boxes. Every single one of them is a compromise in some way. As a vehicle, the Grenadier represents the smallest amount of compromise - by a wide margin - that I'll ever have had to accept. Granted that's just my use case but I can't think I'm the only one. And, in terms of specifications, if you can find me another Wagon for sale in North America with a 1-ton payload, front and rear lockers from the factory, and a service model that promises parts, workshop manuals, and technicians around the world, I'd be happy to hear about it. I've looked and as far as I know it doesn't exist, except for the Gren. I do agree that the majority of Grenadiers will be purchased by the "storm-kettle-at-the-campsite" brigade; while I don't 100% get the reference I think you are referring to the folks who invest $120k in the most impressively accessorized 4x4 in the world only to never leave the pavement. Thats true for Jeeps, Broncos, and pretty much everything else too - the lifestyle buyers support the business model. The folks who really need the tool in a way are 'subsidized' by the hobbyists. Just out of curiosity - let's say I 100% agree that it's a copy. Why does that matter? And does that also matter for other elements, like the rear door being a brazen copy of the 70 series rear doors? I'm curious as I know we disagree on whether it's a copy or not, but it occurs to me as I wrote this reply that I wouldn't really care either way, as long as it can do the job I am buying it for, and so I'm hoping to understand other perspectives. |
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20th Oct 2021 7:50pm |
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| kenzle8a Member Since: 12 Feb 2020 Location: None Posts: 1074 
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I’d rather a brazen knock off of a good product that’s been discontinued than attaching a name to something that has nothing to do with that name.
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20th Oct 2021 7:54pm |
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| Farmerben Member Since: 16 Jan 2017 Location: Herefordshire Posts: 605 
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Philip, you’re drunk, go home. Honestly, I’ve got a new defender on order. I’m not fussed on the grenadier. But I respect that there are people who prefer it and welcome any new players to the 4x4 market. Have some class and just get over yourself. https://instagram.com/bentheoandrews |
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20th Oct 2021 8:01pm |
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| Philip Member Since: 09 Mar 2018 Location: England Posts: 510
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Think my point is that if you are actually buying one to use a working vehicle, you’ll very much be in the minority - it will be a subjective choice for most private buyers, much more so for business or fleet users who can spend half the money on something that does exactly the same job. In reality, everyone knows that the trade off in on-road ability forced by its construction isn’t going to compensated by additional benefits elsewhere - and that’s fine, if you aren’t bothered. And I understand some aren’t - but it’s a fact which doesn’t make it any more authentic or honest or more of a true successor to an old Land Rover - it just means it’s not going to be as capable, comfortable etc as it could/should be. |
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20th Oct 2021 8:16pm |
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| m0ondogy Member Since: 04 Oct 2021 Location: East Coast Posts: 8 
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Bud, what are you even talking about?
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20th Oct 2021 8:42pm |
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| HardCharger Member Since: 03 Mar 2013 Location: Manila Posts: 735  
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21st Oct 2021 2:23am |
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