 | Home > General & Technical (L663) > New Defender 110 off road capabilities compared… |
 
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| jst Member Since: 14 Jan 2008 Location: Taunton Posts: 8027   
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Philip, your right graphics don't show it all, but give some visual feedback. Bit like a temp gauge staying in the middle when there is 20deg or more actual variation.
Preload do change. Try Rock crawl for example, shows pretty much locked until you change steering input. But is has to be reactive which means loss of fwd momentum at that point as power is redistributed. That pause how ever so slight would not occur with full lockers. (All other components assumed equal) Why do jlr sell reactive systems, the avg user just wants it to work and not worry about understanding how it does it. Which means full lockers which are user selected are not in favour. Cheers James 110 2012 XS Utility 130 2011 M57 bespoke Camper 90 2010 Hardtop 90 M57 1988 Hardtop |
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11th Apr 2021 7:15pm |
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| Philip Member Since: 09 Mar 2018 Location: England Posts: 510 
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That makes the assumption that a fully-locked axle is the most effective and efficient means of negotiating every kind of terrain where a wheel might lose traction.
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11th Apr 2021 7:51pm |
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| jst Member Since: 14 Jan 2008 Location: Taunton Posts: 8027
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Compared to a system that waits to loose traction and then diverts drive (which the full locker has already done) which is the only function it (tr) has. Tr doesn't purposely allow a wheel(s) to spin which can aid progress in some situation which the user of a lockable axle can make a decision on based on their expertise.
TR does react with different delays to wheel slip and changes how aggressive wheel braking is applied, plus gear selections and accelerator response. All functions that can be done by the experienced driver. Don't get me wrong. It's a fantastic system and is the best option for 99% of users. The point I am making is with drive already going to all wheels with manual lockers you won't experience the loss of momentum when one wheel starts to slip whilst a system, TR, in this case does what its name says. Responds to the terrain. With manual lockers the driver has already responded by what has been seen rather than experienced. Therefore the manual lock is preventative. Cheers James 110 2012 XS Utility 130 2011 M57 bespoke Camper 90 2010 Hardtop 90 M57 1988 Hardtop |
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11th Apr 2021 8:20pm |
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| Philip Member Since: 09 Mar 2018 Location: England Posts: 510
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On the subject, from someone who actually is a professional chassis development engineer:
“The eDiff has preload settings that are mode dependent. You’re perhaps thinking of traction control, although even that now has the ability to pre fill brake pressure into stationary wheels when in certain modes. There simply isn’t anything than a manual lock will do that the eDiff can’t. Well....apart from result in horrible instability when one wheel has a great deal more traction than the other and the torque on the high grip wheel overwhelms the available traction and results in it going sideways rather than forward. The general issue with your outlook... is that you are unable or unwilling to accept that older isn’t always better. It may be slightly more involving (if manually locking a diff really does it for you!) but to claim that a manually locking diff is better than an eDiff is patently wrong. To achieve what the eDiff can do you’d need your passenger to sit there with a wheel speed readout for each wheel and a manually controlled lever that would enable him to infinitely adjust the locking torque of the diff. How many Defenders have you driven that had that feature?” |
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11th Apr 2021 8:27pm |
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| jst Member Since: 14 Jan 2008 Location: Taunton Posts: 8027
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I am not trying to replicate an e diff in application, and no I am not confused and thinking purely traction control.
Neither am I stuck in the old ways of dismissing technology. Read my previous posts on here before making generalisations about being stuck in the old days. I am a strong advocate of TR. (Line edited below 2 mins after post) So your saying having a wheel spin, allowing the vehicle to momentarily stop is a better way of moving a vehicle forward, plus pauses and loss of momentum make for a more efficient and effective transition? So you work on chassis design for jlr? Cheers James 110 2012 XS Utility 130 2011 M57 bespoke Camper 90 2010 Hardtop 90 M57 1988 Hardtop |
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11th Apr 2021 8:56pm |
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| SteveG Member Since: 29 Nov 2011 Location: Norfolk Posts: 659 
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So what are your credentials/experience Philip? Instead of quoting someone else, give us chapter and verse of your off road experience and engineering pedigree. |
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12th Apr 2021 7:03am |
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| jst Member Since: 14 Jan 2008 Location: Taunton Posts: 8027
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If I recall this was a discussion of reactive vs preventative systems. I am still a believer the preventative system is the better option for the experienced driver. Cheers
James 110 2012 XS Utility 130 2011 M57 bespoke Camper 90 2010 Hardtop 90 M57 1988 Hardtop |
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12th Apr 2021 8:15am |
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| cyberhusky Member Since: 09 Feb 2021 Location: Luxembourg Posts: 275 
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And that's the reason LR and all other do built active systems in their 4x4, they want to sell milions of cars. Not just some hundreds or thousands to some experienced drivers worldwide. The new Defender is being sold in the USA after many years of absence.A huge market. So for most (98% my guess) TR is just the way to go, with much less experience needed. I'm still impressed that the Defender can drive where the preventative systems 4x4 can go too. Perhaps the old system is a little bit easier to go through but only if you know which gear to engage at a given time. OTOH I would never drive such trails alone always with one or several other cars. Just in case one gets stuck. It's like scuba diving, never do it alone. 22MY Defender 110 (actual) | 10MY Freelander 2 (history) | 15MY Discovery Sport HSE (history) |
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12th Apr 2021 9:20am |
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| Retroanaconda Member Since: 04 Jan 2012 Location: Scotland Posts: 2645 
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The system on the L663 is partially preventative in that it has the locking diffs (if specified/enabled) but it will never be as preventative as old fashioned manual lockers.
This is exactly as it should be. The Wrangler is a purpose-built leisure off road vehicle and so is designed specifically for this kind of thing - this design brings an advantage on the trail but disadvantages in handling/comfort/economy on the road. The Defender is a road-going car (SUV if you prefer) but the clever design and technology allows it to hold its own against the purpose-built off roaders, and even out-perform them in some aspects. The fact that it can do this and still perform as well on the road as it does is what is most impressive about it, despite the fact that 90% of buyers will never get close to using its full ability. Just the same as all the other vehicles LR make. |
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12th Apr 2021 9:28am |
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| Naks Member Since: 27 Jan 2009 Location: Stellenbosch, ZA Posts: 2638  
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perhaps, but that is a bit of a dead market, innit? How many people traded in their 1987 110 for a Puma when it came out in 2007? 
JLR needs to grow its market, and by all accounts the ND is selling very well, especially in the US. On a previous point about TR being reactive and thus you see people spinning, rolling back, etc. You need to drive these vehicles differently to an old-school landy: the lines are different, some left-foot braking, etc. -- 2010 Defender Puma 90 + BAS remap + Alive IC + Slickshift + Ashcroft ATB rear 2015 Range Rover Sport V8 Supercharged 
Defender Puma Workshop Manual: https://bit.ly/2zZ1en9 Discovery 4 Workshop Manual: https://bit.ly/2zXrtKO Range Rover/Sport L320/L322/L494 Workshop Manual: https://bit.ly/2zc58JQ |
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12th Apr 2021 9:34am |
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| Tim in Scotland Member Since: 23 May 2007 Location: The Land that time forgot Posts: 3753
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I thought the original idea of the TR system, with or without locking diffs, was to assist a less experienced buyer to use their vehicle more to its capability without a confusion of knobs and levers and the threat that if you leave one engaged in the wrong conditions/ surfaces the transmission wouldn’t end up in lots of expensive pieces in the mud. You don’t have to use the TR programs just leave it in “Comfort” mode, set the air suspension to off-road height, engage low range and adjust the HDC to the speed you feel happy with (or turn it off completely if you want to). If fitted you can just set it to Auto and let the computers do it, but that, to me, removes all the fun. With the configurable settings LR has attempted to increase the appeal of electronic systems to the more experienced off-road driver by allowing more “adjustability” if you want it
Edit - I agree with Naks, you have to approach the job differently in the ND but I still love having my fillings shaken out in my old TDi300 90 with centre diff lock high and low and no other decisions to make other than how much power and which gear to use. Pangea Green D250 90 HSE with Air Suspension, Off-road Pack, Towing Pack, Black Contrast roof , rear recovery eyes, Front bash plate, Classic flaps all round, extended wheel arch kit and a few bits from PowerfulUK Expel Clear Gloss PPF to come 2020 D240 1st Edition in Pangea Green with Acorn interior. Now gone - old faithful, no mechanical issues whatsoever ever but the leaks and rattles all over the place won’t be missed! |
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12th Apr 2021 9:37am |
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| SN Member Since: 29 Jun 2007 Location: SK6 Posts: 729 |
And then there was Sand Mode on the Discos to help at the traffic light grand prix! Must try that again...
Steve N | 21MY Defender | 08MY Discovery 3 (history) | 06MY Discovery 3 (ancient history) |
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12th Apr 2021 12:01pm |
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| Supacat Member Since: 16 Oct 2012 Location: West Yorkshire Posts: 11018 
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No ~ it's announced it's going to be doing the exact opposite and cut capacity: "Jaguar Land Rover will slash its manufacturing capacity by 25% over five years and write off investment in products it’s decided to scrap under new Chief Executive Officer Thierry Bollore. The British carmaker will take a non-cash charge of about 1 billion pounds ($1.4 billion) in the quarter ending in March related to higher previous spending and projects it won’t complete" "On Friday, the carmaker said it has lowered its breakeven point to about 400,000 vehicles a year, from 600,000." Read more at: https://www.bloombergquint.com/global-econ...n-capacity
Not sure what figures you have but globally just over 28,000 to end of Q3 FY21 and suggested breakdown for US: Q1 ~ 600 Q2 ~ 1,300 Q3 ~ 7,200 https://carsalesbase.com/us-land-rover-defender/ Isn't selling well never mind "selling very well" for a vehicle with 100,00 per annum as a manufacturer's forecast. |
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12th Apr 2021 12:35pm |
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| jst Member Since: 14 Jan 2008 Location: Taunton Posts: 8027
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I agree the sentiments of above posts.
The experienced market is not what they are pushing for, I never said it was. TR is a fantastic piece of kit and ground breaking technology when it first appeared. You can change the tolerances of how it reacts with different programs certainly, yes I concur driving style is cometely different. I have put forward the point on here many a time that an inexperienced Driver in a d3 on ats, as that era is the last time I made ref to TR, will out perform the experienced driver in a std 90 with MTs. This is still the case. My post last night was picking up on the point made about vehicles pausing and sliding back when using a reactive system. My point remains that with axles locked in the scenario shown it wouldn't of stopped, and slid back it would of carried on. TR and the systems it manages are far more advanced than say an electric axle locker. They need to be as their purposes is to get the inexperienced driver further. But the fact remains the system is reactive. Until video mapping ground interpretation can look ahead and preset the vehicles systems, which is not far off, it will always be reactive. yes it will react quickly, very quickly. Yes it will do its best to get you through. Yes there will be changes in momentum as it responds.yes it's different to a full axle locker. is it perfect, well its bloody close and does a great job at getting people further. is it good for the market and selling, yes I believe so. Is it as good as a full axle locker, in my experience no, not yet. Why, because its reactive, wheels have to start to spin, or have an unbalanced torque differentiation for it to to react. This currently causes and pause. Granted not for very long but still a pause and when's thats 2+ T pausing it will take more to get it going again. This is purely my findings and experience based on final year project with JLR, various prototype work for some well known 4x4 manufacturers, ten years instructing with LRE, and the best part of twenty years experience at the coal face as it were for both practical testing and reporting plus my own competition experience in both seats. Cheers James 110 2012 XS Utility 130 2011 M57 bespoke Camper 90 2010 Hardtop 90 M57 1988 Hardtop |
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12th Apr 2021 2:19pm |
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