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Philip

Member Since: 09 Mar 2018
Location: England
Posts: 510

Which begs the question - if a basic mechanical 100% diff lock is always “better” in every single situation than every single permutation and development of e-diff and traction control programming, why has every manufacturer wasted so much time, money and effort by not just fitting one? Or is it really the case that the wheel at either end of the axle suddenly has exactly the same amount of grip available to it once the diff is locked and the torque to each side is fixed?

Pressing a button to electrically lock a diff is in no way more difficult than pressing a button to select a (supposedly less effective) setting for TC/diff/brake/suspension/throttle etc management (in fact, given the confusion Terrain Response supposedly causes, less so), and there’s no major skill barrier to using either option.

12th Apr 2021 3:37pm

lohr500

Member Since: 14 Sep 2014
Location: Skipton
Posts: 1316

2013 Defender 110 Puma 2.2 XS CSW Santorini Black

Presumably because the electronic TR system is idiot proof in that it will revert to a road biassed setting above a certain speed or shut down when it gets overloaded. Whereas a mechanically locked set of centre and cross axle diffs could allow the user to continue at high speed on a hard surface and loose steering control and/or put high loading on the components.

12th Apr 2021 3:49pm

Philip

Member Since: 09 Mar 2018
Location: England
Posts: 510

Very simple to remedy with electrically/electronically-locked diffs (as the vast majority of OE ones are).

12th Apr 2021 4:03pm

lohr500

Member Since: 14 Sep 2014
Location: Skipton
Posts: 1316

As far as cross axle locking is concerned, would it be fair to say that an electronically controlled system will also be less costly to implement in terms of hardware?

Am I being over simplistic in assuming that the existing anti lock braking system is doing all the heavy lifting with clever electronics determining which corner to send additional brake pressure to. The diffs can be standard open units.

Lockable cross axle diffs will require additional internals and mechanical/electrical componentry to actuate them, so will end up being more expensive to implement.

12th Apr 2021 4:13pm

Philip

Member Since: 09 Mar 2018
Location: England
Posts: 510

ABS hardware is how traction/stability controls work (ABS and stability control being legal requirements) - but electronically-controlled diffs are obviously a lot more expensive than a basic mechanical locker. The value is in the calibration/programming.

12th Apr 2021 4:17pm

jst

Member Since: 14 Jan 2008
Location: Taunton
Posts: 8021

2011 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 USW Stornoway Grey

Philip wrote:
Which begs the question - if a basic mechanical 100% diff lock is always “better” in every single situation than every single permutation and development of e-diff and traction control programming, why has every manufacturer wasted so much time, money and effort by not just fitting one? Or is it really the case that the wheel at either end of the axle suddenly has exactly the same amount of grip available to it once the diff is locked and the torque to each side is fixed?

Pressing a button to electrically lock a diff is in no way more difficult than pressing a button to select a (supposedly less effective) setting for TC/diff/brake/suspension/throttle etc management (in fact, given the confusion Terrain Response supposedly causes, less so), and there’s no major skill barrier to using either option.

As I said my replies were aimed at the original statement about the pause which a vehicle with axle lockers would not have.

You seem adamant on changing the angle of attack with no substance to back anything up.

My eyes were tinted when I worked for JLR.

Your last para pretty much sums up an understanding of whose expected to be driving and your understanding of them.

I have given my views based on my experience, we can agree to differ as I am yet to see anything that shows me TR can predict the ground and therefore not be reactive.

I think I will leave this here as its not really a discussion with any backing. Cheers

James
110 2012 XS Utility
130 2011 M57 bespoke Camper
90 2010 Hardtop
90 M57 1988 Hardtop

12th Apr 2021 6:18pm

Ecco

Member Since: 31 Oct 2015
Location: Kuala Lumpur
Posts: 280

2014 Defender 110 Puma 2.2 DCPU Galway Green

lohr500 wrote:
As far as cross axle locking is concerned, would it be fair to say that an electronically controlled system will also be less costly to implement in terms of hardware?

..spot on..im designing this sort of things for industrial systems/automotive bots/oil and gas...why is it made its way in to these areas?? It is cheaper and makes whole operation cheaper..thats all there is...i bet JLR is very same reason..

13th Apr 2021 8:19am

Philip

Member Since: 09 Mar 2018
Location: England
Posts: 510

jst wrote:
I am yet to see anything that shows me TR can predict the ground and therefore not be reactive

You miss the (very obvious) point - why is giving each wheel exactly the same amount of torque, irrespective of how much traction is available, the ideal situation? Does locking a diff predict anything?

13th Apr 2021 8:36am

Tim in Scotland

Member Since: 23 May 2007
Location: The Land that time forgot
Posts: 3753

A new video from Steven Firth in Canada comparing his P400 Defender to an L320 RRS and a L322 FFRR - the RRS and FFRR are on low miles Duratracs and Stven’s Defender is on AT3’s that have done 15000 miles. He has been disappointed with the way the P400 drives especially the way that the power gets cut even with the DSC disabled. He prefers the P300 motor.

This video also shows him manually locking the centre diff BUT his comments on the rolling script are interesting in that he wasn’t sure if it 100% locked...... Pangea Green D250 90 HSE with Air Suspension, Off-road Pack, Towing Pack, Black Contrast roof , rear recovery eyes, Front bash plate, Classic flaps all round, extended wheel arch kit and a few bits from PowerfulUK Expel Clear Gloss PPF to come
2020 D240 1st Edition in Pangea Green with Acorn interior. Now gone - old faithful, no mechanical issues whatsoever ever but the leaks and rattles all over the place won’t be missed!

13th Apr 2021 8:38am

cyberhusky

Member Since: 09 Feb 2021
Location: Luxembourg
Posts: 274

I had AT3 on my Freelander 2, worked good in mud but not in snow an terrible in rain, very slippery. Before I had AT2 which where good in mud, snow an rain.
IMHO the right tyres are very important to move on.

A question: when the RR pulled the Defender stuck in the snow, is it normal to pull this fast or does it work to slowly pull at the beginning? (Never done that before) 22MY Defender 110 (actual) | 10MY Freelander 2 (history) | 15MY Discovery Sport HSE (history)

13th Apr 2021 9:51am

Digger2000

Member Since: 19 Sep 2020
Location: Newcastle
Posts: 590

There is more to this than just tyres. Main problem is when in low range with DSC turned off once the wheels or the car reaches 25mph the DSC kicks back in and kills any momentum you had leaving you stuck! New Defender mods have been going on about this issue for some time now and are trying to get LR techs to sort this out. I’m aware of two other defender owners reporting the same issue Steven Firth being one of them and a guy called Glenn Moores who has a D250 90 with rear differential. What’s more annoying is this is only happening in the new Defender none of the other LR models with similar TR have this issue (discovery 5, RR/RRS etc). Something isn’t right and LR need to get this sorted ASAP.

13th Apr 2021 10:25am

cyberhusky

Member Since: 09 Feb 2021
Location: Luxembourg
Posts: 274

Quote:
Something isn’t right and LR need to get this sorted ASAP.

If it's a software issue it should be made available over the air (Wifi) update. 22MY Defender 110 (actual) | 10MY Freelander 2 (history) | 15MY Discovery Sport HSE (history)

13th Apr 2021 2:18pm

cyberhusky

Member Since: 09 Feb 2021
Location: Luxembourg
Posts: 274

New Defender as Dune Racer

Found this today…
https://mobile.twitter.com/eigas_bearmach/...60/video/1 22MY Defender 110 (actual) | 10MY Freelander 2 (history) | 15MY Discovery Sport HSE (history)

18th Apr 2021 5:07pm

leeloo

Member Since: 31 Mar 2021
Location: Bereldange
Posts: 40

Permanent 4x4 like you want in a higher end vehicle it is more expensive.
I had a land cruiser with a only central dif lock and I did fine. Toyota also has an electronic system to manage that, A-TRAC.
Is not as good the one for LR, but I did fine.
I am not worried. Tires are very important. No amount of mechanical or electronics can make up the difference between a good and a bad tire.

19th Apr 2021 7:31am

Supacat

Member Since: 16 Oct 2012
Location: West Yorkshire
Posts: 11018

2013 Defender 110 Puma 2.2 XS DCPU Keswick Green

Tim in Scotland wrote:
A new video from Steven Firth in Canada comparing his P400 Defender to an L320 RRS and a L322 FFRR - the RRS and FFRR are on low miles Duratracs and Stven’s Defender is on AT3’s that have done 15000 miles. He has been disappointed with the way the P400 drives especially the way that the power gets cut even with the DSC disabled. He prefers the P300 motor.

This video also shows him manually locking the centre diff BUT his comments on the rolling script are interesting in that he wasn’t sure if it 100% locked......

Is this his latest?

Seems he's really falli g out of love for it ~ well the engine... and maybe the gearbox:

28th Apr 2021 7:33am

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