LandRoverAnorak wrote:

You do realise that this is a Defender forum and that most of us have already accepted that compromise?

Philip wrote:

There are some valid points about why someone might want to buy a Grenadier, but I’m still not convinced that they justify the design choices and the compromises they bring. The idea that it’s OK for it to be wilfully hobbled as a thing to drive and travel in for 99% of situations because there’s a tiny window of off-road use in which two live axles might potentially be a benefit seems bizarre; I can’t imagine anyone buying a long-wheelbase station wagon instead of a Wrangler if deliberately driving over giant boulders was their thing (I’ve also read suggestions that the Grenadier’s design looks like it might not offer great articulation, but that remains to be seen).

I may be mistaken Philip but it is starting to sound like you don’t want one!

But yes, for the majority of people an IFS vehicle would be a better choice for daily use. But again, the Gren isn’t for the majority of people. It’s for people who are absolutely willing to put up with a barely noticeable compromise (again, a modern solid axle can be made to be very close to a modern independent suspension rig in terms of road manners) for the benefits that solid axles bring to their use case. To use an example, the stair cars at airports spent 99% of their time driving between airplanes. That doesn’t mean the stairs on the back are useless or unnecessary — that’s the point of the vehicle. With the grenadier, solid axles open up a ton of commercial options — PTOs, undercarriage modifications for use on rails, lift kits that don’t break the bank for tourers, track options for cold weather, etc. These are not really options with independent suspensions in nearly the same way. And a lot of commercial mid-size vehicles are front IFS so that really does make the Gren a unique offering.

Quote:

Not sure about this - the Grenadier is an all-new vehicle that shares very little with anything else, and has engines and a gearbox which are as complicated and advanced as it’s possible to be. There’s zero parts or service support anywhere, and no plans to have them - which means you’re at the mercy of the “major repair centre chain” yet to be announced (do they have Halfords Autocentres in the Outback?) Rather than sharing wheels, if easy repair is the aim, why wouldn’t you just buy a whole vehicle with decades of existing support, knowledge, parts supply, dealers and so on?

Supacat wrote:

Hufflepuff wrote:

So we are up to £45k now.

Up to? Where did you start from?

Philip wrote:

The styling is a deliberately blatant and embarrassing Defender rip-off, hence the trademark case (compare with the Mahindra v Jeep case in the US last year).

Sure, I don't disagree - but so what? Every car is a rip-off of another car. I can't tell the difference between most Hyundai, Kia, and Honda sedans because they all have the same shape and function. Why is it a problem in the 4x4 world for vehicles to have the same shape and function? I don't see anyone having the same disdain for Land Cruiser which even goes so far as to try to rip off the name (historically speaking, this was even the articulated intent of Toyota; I know the modernity, Cruisers and JLR's have diverged in styling though)

Philip the stuff that you are identifying as problems may absolutley be problems for you and enough for you not to buy a Grenadier. But what I'm trying to say here is that the people who the Grenadier is marketed towards don't care about this stuff. In some cases we prefer it this way. I actually don't care what it looks like...I want it to do a job. If I cared about looks I'd go get myself an old "Driver" E-type in the same ballpark of cash....hard to beat the looks of that one!

I also recognize you are the odd-man out on this thread and I don't want you to feel like you're being ganged up on or anything of that nature, so please know I'm enjoying our debate thoroughly; my intent is always from a place of respect and kindness though that can be hard to translate via text. I appreciate you sticking by your perspective and explaining it to me and the rest of us because it generates good conversation. I can imagine us having a similar chat over a pint once we get this Covid thing behind us -- you roll up to the pub in your JLR and I'll roll up in my Grenadier and we can have a proper comparison!

Philip wrote:

The styling is a deliberately blatant and embarrassing Defender rip-off,

ChasingOurTrunks wrote:

I can imagine us having a similar chat over a pint once we get this Covid thing behind us -- you roll up to the pub in your JLR and I'll roll up in my Grenadier and we can have a proper comparison!

Philip wrote:

ChasingOurTrunks wrote:

I can imagine us having a similar chat over a pint once we get this Covid thing behind us -- you roll up to the pub in your JLR and I'll roll up in my Grenadier and we can have a proper comparison!

Deal. I’ll bring my old Series III though, because that seems like a fairer comparison... 🍻

I bet it doesn't have Apple CarPlay though....

(Gosh I hope the Grenadier has a modern interior...honestly that could be a deal breaker for me. I'd sooner accept the compromise of a complex New Defender to get a modern, comfortable interior than I would accept the compromise of the Gren's solid axles etc. if it doesn't have a modern interior - but my hopes are high because what they promised is modernity)