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Joe the Plumber

Member Since: 18 Dec 2013
Location: Midlands
Posts: 907

2014 Defender 110 Puma 2.2 HT Fuji White

Quite right mate.

Only a fool would turn down a vaccine, rushed out in nine months (a process that normally takes ten years), for an illness that the vast majority of infected people don't even know they've had, that doesn't stop the recipient catching or transmitting the virus, with no data on any possible adverse long term side effects, and for which the makers have been indemnified against any future problems.

What a fool I am.

A shame they can't come up with an injection of common sense, that also protects against mass hysteria.

11th Feb 2021 8:43am

Grenadier

Member Since: 23 Jul 2014
Location: The foot of Mont Blanc...
Posts: 5808

2011 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 DCPU Corris Grey

Joe, not as simple as that. A drug only 'normally' takes ten years to produce because of logistics. Normally only one company is developing a given drug (as they'll be developing hundreds across their company and sites), one lab, one budget. Trials are conducted a number of times, but with only a few people each time - 10, 50, or maybe a few hundred. There is then only a small team analysing the data and writing up the study for government and peer review. Then there is a delay (a queue) for the data to actually be reviewed, analaysed etc. Then there's a delay for that body (a medicines agency) to release their findings. Then there's a delay for a government to grant (or otherwise) a licence for its usage and then the company has to find space on its production line to actually distribute the drug.

With these vacines, the world's pharma giants had access to the Genome almost immediately, shut down development of their other drugs so that numerous labs and scientists worked in unison - including companies sharing data that normally wouldn't work together, massively upscaled trials (thousands) and released the data immediately and continually for analysis enabling real-time peer and agency review, rather than at the end of snail pace trials and development and then had production lines ready and dedicated to production immediately they were given the green light. In addition, agencies tasked with analysing the data and governments who would be giving licences, did so immediately as all paperwork was expedited and jumped to the front of the queue. No delays whatsoever.

In real terms, you will find that the man-hours of actual research, development and trials is the same for these vacines provided in nine months as for a drug that takes ten years. Think of it this way. If you got a platoon of Royal Engineers to build a bridge and it took them 12 months or you got the entire Corps of Royal Engineers onto the job of building the bridge using the same techniques, materials and tools and it took them only a tenth of the time, it's still the same bridge. Throw one lab at a drug, or all the world's labs....

NB. My old man was head of Clinical Research and Trialls for 25 years for one of the world's largest pharma giants, he explained this upscaling.... Monsieur Le Grenadier

I've not been everywhere, but it's on my list.....

2011 Puma 110DC - Corris Grey

11th Feb 2021 9:06am

Joe the Plumber

Member Since: 18 Dec 2013
Location: Midlands
Posts: 907

Fair enough. But:

Long term side effects?

The fact that Covid is hardly noticeable for the vast majority of infected people?

The mainstream media are responsible for causing mass hysteria about a virus that really isn't that dangerous to the large majority. There are of course people who have died from it (I use the word 'from' very carefully, as opposed to 'with'), but most will have been very elderly, or with pre-existing serious health conditions (or both), or seriously overweight.

I understand less than 400 under 60s have died from it in the UK.

I will now leave it at that. But I would urge everyone to look beyond the BBC if they want to get a better understanding of this crisis.

11th Feb 2021 9:28am

Grenadier

Member Since: 23 Jul 2014
Location: The foot of Mont Blanc...
Posts: 5808

But the fact that it doesn't effect he majority isn't the problem. The number of people it DOES effect, is enough to shut down ICUs and overwhelm staffing levels in hospitals across the country, indeed the world. Of course, we could just upscale those ICUs and the doctors and nurses needed to staff them, but that would cost billions (buildings, quipment, years of specialist training etc) and take years to achieve. Or we give everyone a jab and the numbers of people requiring ICU treatment drops exponentially and the NHS is back to normal. This is not about 'who' it effects but how those effected impact the NHS.

Again, an army analogy. The reason the armed forces in NATO use 5.56mm ammunition is nothing other than a cleverly thought out logistics plan. If you use a 7.62mm round, nine times out of ten the person who's shot will die. Use a 5.56mm round and they survive. This isn't a touchy feely humanitarian policy, but instead is because that person has to be saved by colleagues, and then a med team, and then a helicopter and then a field hospital. Clog up the beds, use up the troops carrying their buddies off the battlefield and eventually the army ceases to function. Covid 19 is like a 5.56mm round. It's effecting just enough people to grind the NHS to a halt. As such, other people needing ICU or ambulances miss out. Need heart surgery, you can't have it because there's no ICU capacity for after you're out. Likewise, crash your motorbike and you may have to be taken to a hospital far further away where they have available ICU beds and your 'golden hour' is tested to its limit, you may die.

Here in the Alps the lifts are closed. Everyone thinks that's about preventing 'spread' which of course it is. But local hospitals also lobbied government and said they didn't have any capacity for people dragged off the mountain with serious injuries because the wards are filled with Covid patients. Less important for a twisted ankle, but potentially lethal for a serious head injury or avalanche victim.

This is the problem: Not who's dying or how many, but how they effect the bigger, medical picture and the wider implications that has on society as a whole. That's the reality. Of course the last argument would be to stop saving people of a certain age and accept their 'time has come' but Western morals are way past that way of thinking, which is now reserved solely for our pets.

Monsieur Le Grenadier

I've not been everywhere, but it's on my list.....

2011 Puma 110DC - Corris Grey

11th Feb 2021 9:53am

Slideywindows

Member Since: 09 Sep 2016
Location: North Essex
Posts: 1283

You speak far too much sense Grenadier.

My children and grandchildren don't actually want me to die, even though they are in J the P's "hardly affected" group.

That's why I'm going for my jab today.

Instead of at the large local Health Centre, it is being done almost an hour away where I've never been before.

Sometimes I think our particular Health Centre is run for the convenience of the staff rather than the patients.....

11th Feb 2021 10:10am

AMBxx

Member Since: 24 Jul 2016
Location: York
Posts: 1031

2015 Defender 110 Puma 2.2 XS CSW Orkney Grey

Joe the Plumber wrote:
Fair enough. But:

Long term side effects?

The fact that Covid is hardly noticeable for the vast majority of infected people?

The mainstream media are responsible for causing mass hysteria about a virus that really isn't that dangerous to the large majority. There are of course people who have died from it (I use the word 'from' very carefully, as opposed to 'with'), but most will have been very elderly, or with pre-existing serious health conditions (or both), or seriously overweight.

I understand less than 400 under 60s have died from it in the UK.

I will now leave it at that. But I would urge everyone to look beyond the BBC if they want to get a better understanding of this crisis.

We all need to be very scared of Long Covid. I've a friend who's a cardiologist. He now has a full clinic of patients with heart problems relating to Covid. Consultants specialising in pretty much every major organ have similar clinics. Most of their patients are under 60. Many much younger.
Death is far from being the only problem. The after-effects are going to drag on for years.
I'm 52. I've no doubt I would survive Covid. I have no idea what sort of condition I'd be in afterwards. This is not something to take lightly.

11th Feb 2021 10:23am

discomog

Member Since: 09 May 2015
Location: Notts/Lincs Border
Posts: 2526

2015 Defender 90 Puma 2.2 XS CSW Santorini Black

I think Grenadier deserves one of these:

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Mini Countryman Cooper S
Morgan Plus 8

11th Feb 2021 12:04pm

Muddybigdog

Member Since: 11 Apr 2014
Location: Suffolk
Posts: 1017

2007 Defender 90 Puma 2.4 XS CSW Zambezi Silver

Joe the Plumber wrote:
Fair enough. But:

Long term side effects?

The fact that Covid is hardly noticeable for the vast majority of infected people?

The mainstream media are responsible for causing mass hysteria about a virus that really isn't that dangerous to the large majority. There are of course people who have died from it (I use the word 'from' very carefully, as opposed to 'with'), but most will have been very elderly, or with pre-existing serious health conditions (or both), or seriously overweight.

I understand less than 400 under 60s have died from it in the UK.

I will now leave it at that. But I would urge everyone to look beyond the BBC if they want to get a better understanding of this crisis.

Taken from the official ONS data, which is quite grim reading, if it was just 400

Jumped ship to reliability - Mitsubishi L200
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11th Feb 2021 12:12pm

nitram17

Member Since: 08 Jun 2014
Location: newcastle
Posts: 2261

I firmly support the right of people to refuse the vaccination if that is their wish. I do personally think they are being selfish in many ways ..it's not about looking at your own personal risk and saying I'm young I'll be ok if I get it so bu**er the rest of the community. All medications have side effects and somebody taking the vaccine will probably develop significant symptoms that may last a long time but that's a risk many are willing to take to protect society as a whole........ Covid is a killer and I personally ask folk to override their concerns and protect others by having the jab asap.but as I said it's still a free country .