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| J77 Member Since: 04 Nov 2019 Location: Fife Posts: 3395  
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Exactly, soon as you add air suspension then that 670kg payload soon shrinks.
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9th Oct 2020 8:45pm |
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| J77 Member Since: 04 Nov 2019 Location: Fife Posts: 3395
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Went to the 90 today but no Hard Top model though the 110 was there. Looks a nice bit of kit, I tried the jump seat, though it was comfortable there’s just no place for your legs.
I got as much photos as I could as I spent a lot of time with the 90 and chatting with my salesman about spec.  Click image to enlarge Click image to enlarge Click image to enlarge Click image to enlarge Click image to enlarge Click image to enlarge |
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10th Oct 2020 2:13pm |
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| walfy Member Since: 29 Aug 2007 Location: Frome Posts: 2658 
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Many thanks for the pics. Need to show my accountant what it is before he'll agree that it is a commercial compliant with current regs. He has looked at the criteria and it fits them apart from the 1000kg payload. So will send off and see what he says 110 D250 SE HT
110 USW SOLD RRE HSE Dynamic Gone, wife killed it VOLVO XC60 R Dynamic with some toys Polaris RZR 900XP SOLD |
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11th Oct 2020 1:32pm |
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| J77 Member Since: 04 Nov 2019 Location: Fife Posts: 3395
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Here’s a better photo of the load space
Click image to enlarge |
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11th Oct 2020 1:57pm |
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| MikeJ Member Since: 04 May 2014 Location: Dorchester, Dorset Posts: 41  
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I am pretty certain that a vehicle is a van if it has neither windows nor seats behind the driver's row. Otherwise it's a car *unless* it's a double cab pickup with more than a 1 tonne payload. I am aware that there are some specific exceptions, but I don't think they're relevant here. So I believe both 90 and 110 commercials will be treated as vans by HMRC. Many, many vans have less than 1 tonne payloads. Mike |
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12th Oct 2020 1:26pm |
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| Supacat Member Since: 16 Oct 2012 Location: West Yorkshire Posts: 11018 
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I don't think windows or seats are part of the definitions for cars and vans for the purpose of P11D issues.
Quoting from the judgement referenced earlier in this thread: "However, we reject the submission that, simply because a vehicle answers to the description of a "van" as that term might be commonly understood, it necessarily follows that it is a "van", or a "goods vehicle", for the purposes of s 115 of ITEPA." Although in decided on whether something is primarily a goods vehicle it had this to say on seats: " 75. In conclusion, even though the FTT was wrong to draw the conclusion it did from the presence of a seat for the driver, overall it was entitled to reach the conclusion that the accommodation of seating for passengers in the front section pointed against the construction of the Kombis being primarily suitable for the carriage of goods or burden. Furthermore we consider that, after it had weighed the significance of its conclusion on the seating at the front against other competing considerations, it was open to the FTT to conclude that the Kombis had no overall "primary suitability" with the result that they were not goods vehicles. We therefore reject the criticisms of the Decision under this heading." I wonder how many Hardtops would be sold if the front passenger seats also needed to be taken out? Last edited by Supacat on 13th Oct 2020 6:49am. Edited 1 time in total |
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12th Oct 2020 4:56pm |
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| walfy Member Since: 29 Aug 2007 Location: Frome Posts: 2658
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I asked my accountant this very question and this is my email to him and his response. Alan I'm after a bit of tax advice, I'm looking at changing my company car. I've had my current Defender for 6 yrs and it's time to move her on. I'm thinking of the new Defender, but the Hardtop variant. It's been marketed as a commercial by LandRover, but we all know car salesmen will tell you anything to sell a car. Has HMRC designated this model as a commercial for VAT reclamation and BiK purposes. I've had a quick look at the internet and I think the BiK will increase slightly from my current costs to £600ish, and the van tax will also increase but only slightly. I need to see 1 in the flesh before I place an order but need to be sure it's compliant or it becomes to expensive for me. Regards Mark And his response Mark I am yet to see one in the flesh like you, but like what I have seen so far. Unfortunately no, HMRC have not classified these as commercial vehicles. However, the last time that they updated their list of commercial vehicles for VAT purposes was in 2015, so that may give you an idea of how little guidance they are giving and how out of date their list of commercial vehicles currently is. It appears from my reading (first time that I have looked in to this vehicle’s spec) that there is no option to have seats behind the driver. There is an option for a third ‘jump seat’ in the front, between the driver and passenger, but it appears that you can not have any further seats as standard or an option. It also appears that the rear ‘windows’ are actually body panels and totally obscured. The 110 appears to have rear doors that open, but only to allow side access to the loading area as there were with the Discovery 2/3 commercial variants which were confirmed commercial vehicles by HMRC. To be able to look at this further I would need to know the exact details of the actual specification you are looking at and whether the variant you are looking at is just one row of seats etc. Have you any details that have been sent to you by a salesperson? For supplementary information, there is a long running case currently going to appeal (delayed by COVID) relating to ‘double cab’ vans provided by Coca Cola to their employees. In essence HMRC have “won” a case stating that the VW Kombi double cab is a car for BIK purposes (although it still remains a van at the moment for VAT purposes) whereas the Vauxhall Vivaro variant (double cab) is still a commercial vehicle. The difference is that there is a gap in the second row of seats in the Vauxhall that is not in the VW which is able to be used for load carriage, which allows it to pass the threshold for a ‘vehicle primarily designed for the carriage of goods’. The lack of that little amount of space in the VW puts it just under that threshold. The case rumbles on, but it could have wider implications for other vehicles and also shows how much attention HMRC are applying to challenging the status of vehicles, without actually being proactive in giving guidance to get it right in the first place. Regarding the BIK costs, these have not significantly changed over the last few years, so would not alter significantly other than inflationary annual increases. Obviously that is subject to any future changes to the rules or rates being brought in! Let me know if you wish to look at this further. Kind regards Alan Now as people have said it looks like they will be compliant, but until HMRC say so all the sales blurb means nothing. Without the tick in the box from HMRC I can't commit to buying one. The BiK on a non commercial is eye wateringly expensive and not a cost I could justify or sustain 110 D250 SE HT 110 USW SOLD RRE HSE Dynamic Gone, wife killed it VOLVO XC60 R Dynamic with some toys Polaris RZR 900XP SOLD |
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12th Oct 2020 8:49pm |
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| Supacat Member Since: 16 Oct 2012 Location: West Yorkshire Posts: 11018
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You accountant's, accurate as it was at the time, advise is now out of date though, as in they talk about the "long running case currently going to appeal" which is the case quoted here and the appeal is complete.
He also quotes the UT judgement "which allows it to pass the threshold for a ‘vehicle primarily designed for the carriage of goods’." but that has been found to be an error in law and thrown out in the final judgement. He's right on the money when (s)he says this: "shows how much attention HMRC are applying to challenging the status of vehicles, without actually being proactive in giving guidance to get it right in the first place." That's how the original taxpayers got "done" ~ no warning, no discussion, HMRC "issued PAYE coding notices for 2016-7 to Messrs Garbett and Payne accordingly, and on the same basis, decided that Coca-Cola was liable for Class 1A national insurance contributions in the tax year 2011-12." As a taxpayer, you either pay or have to appeal to the Tribunal. It appears the onus is on you to prove HMRC wrong and not the other way around. I've dropped a JLR named individual an email on the topic and received no reply and note they are silent here also: https://www.defender2.net/forum/topic74529.html As a final note, It's interesting that in the case of the employer, it went back to the 2011-12 tax year and backdated the claim for NI contributions. |
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13th Oct 2020 6:32am |
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| thepetrolhead Member Since: 30 Jul 2013 Location: South West Posts: 247 
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I rang dealership, who informed me that my 90 Hard Top order I placed 4 weeks ago, still has no build slot.
Apparently 110 Commercials now getting build slots. Dealership said they'll contact me when they have an update.  |
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31st Oct 2020 10:55am |
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| Supacat Member Since: 16 Oct 2012 Location: West Yorkshire Posts: 11018
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I assume these are all build slots in 2021?
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31st Oct 2020 11:34am |
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| J77 Member Since: 04 Nov 2019 Location: Fife Posts: 3395
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Definitely won’t see a 90 this side of the new year, apparently a 3 month delay on them.
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31st Oct 2020 11:46am |
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| thepetrolhead Member Since: 30 Jul 2013 Location: South West Posts: 247
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I've got a delivery date for Jan 21. Dealership said 110 Commercials actually being built.... |
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31st Oct 2020 2:37pm |
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| cozz Member Since: 15 May 2013 Location: nottingham Posts: 537 |
is yours a 90 ?
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31st Oct 2020 8:13pm |
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| thepetrolhead Member Since: 30 Jul 2013 Location: South West Posts: 247
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Yes
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31st Oct 2020 8:14pm |
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