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Julie



Member Since: 07 Oct 2017
Location: Nantes
Posts: 496
France 2012 Defender 110 Puma 2.2 SW Keswick Green
wow - € 45 K bpm taxes due ... I did not know that ...

I do not understand the Grenadier's business model. If confronted with high taxes everywhere in the EU, they would only sell a small number of 4X4's. in this case they won't afford high development costs. That's why they're taking components from other car manufacturers. The resulting 4x4, however, will be very expensive anyway.

This is not the Defender concept.

This is more the Mercedes G wagon concept - a 4x4 that still exists, because of rich clients that are willing to pay huge sums.
Post #858485 27th Sep 2020 10:03pm
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Supacat



Member Since: 16 Oct 2012
Location: West Yorkshire
Posts: 11018
United Kingdom 2013 Defender 110 Puma 2.2 XS DCPU Keswick Green
What do you actually believe the business model to be that you don't understand?

Julie wrote:
If confronted with high taxes everywhere in the EU, they would only sell a small number of 4X4's. in this case they won't afford high development costs.

I don't believe the tax situation is universal in the EU; and the volume of vehicles Ineos is declaring is around 25,000 per annum, so not exactly a high volume by most comparisons.

Julie wrote:
That's why they're taking components from other car manufacturers.

What parts do you know they are taking and from which manufacturers?


Julie wrote:
The resulting 4x4, however, will be very expensive anyway.

INEOS have already stated the ballpark figure of £40k, are you referring to this or another figure?

Julie wrote:
This is not the Defender concept.

This is more the Mercedes G wagon concept - a 4x4 that still exists, because of rich clients that are willing to pay huge sums.


"Not the Defender concept"? What does a fully spec'd new Defender cost now? In the UK it's over £100k.

From the horse's mouth:
"Asked to describe the vehicle and its performance, he [Jim Ratcliffe] added: 'It will end up 80 per cent Mercedes-Benz G-Wagon, but at half the price.'
https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cars/a...Wales.html
Post #858495 28th Sep 2020 5:28am
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Julie



Member Since: 07 Oct 2017
Location: Nantes
Posts: 496
France 2012 Defender 110 Puma 2.2 SW Keswick Green
The Grenadier will be another G at almost the same price.

Nobody’s gonna buy a € 25 K 4x4 while its immatriculation in the EU costs € 25...50 K
That’s why 4x4 prices are rising infinetely

Defender like 4x4 concepts continue to exist outside EU (e.g. Russia, India)

And inside the EU all manufacturers fly towards luxuries.
You’ll never accept high taxes for cheap products.

the Grenadier’s business model :
A few grey haired men meeting in a conservative pub deciding that they could turn back time. And as we all know : turning back time is never a good idea ...

Even if it’s hard (and I include myself, too) : we all have to accept, that the times of the Camel Trophies are over. Crying or Very sad
Post #858544 28th Sep 2020 12:26pm
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Supacat



Member Since: 16 Oct 2012
Location: West Yorkshire
Posts: 11018
United Kingdom 2013 Defender 110 Puma 2.2 XS DCPU Keswick Green
Julie wrote:
That's why they're taking components from other car manufacturers.

What parts do you know they are taking and from which manufacturers?
Post #858550 28th Sep 2020 12:39pm
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LandymanStefan



Member Since: 30 Aug 2017
Location: Surrey
Posts: 881
England 2001 Defender 90 Td5 SW Epsom Green
Engines and gearbox’s from bmw? Saw a video of the interior of the prototype which had the bmw gear selector in.
Post #858553 28th Sep 2020 12:45pm
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Julie



Member Since: 07 Oct 2017
Location: Nantes
Posts: 496
France 2012 Defender 110 Puma 2.2 SW Keswick Green
Yeah, engine + gear box are a good example. They’re using some Italian stuff, too.

Since they do not have a proper car production, they’ll have to take the components from others in order to respect the cost frame. Unlike Mercedes bolt the G wagon using their own components from Mercedes car industries.

Just watch the vidéos available on their website. They explain most of the développement strategies.
Post #858565 28th Sep 2020 1:51pm
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Supacat



Member Since: 16 Oct 2012
Location: West Yorkshire
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United Kingdom 2013 Defender 110 Puma 2.2 XS DCPU Keswick Green
BMW customer engine yes, but gearbox is from ZF and as far as I'm aware no other parts are coming from car manufacturers as you claimed?

What car company directly manufactures all components? The new Defender appears to be built of components entirely bought in, with the exception of the engine. I'm not sure that can be seen as a negative?

Your G Wagen example rather falls down when you see that Mercedes don't actually bolt anything themselves but have it built under contract by a third party!
Post #858602 28th Sep 2020 5:56pm
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LandymanStefan



Member Since: 30 Aug 2017
Location: Surrey
Posts: 881
England 2001 Defender 90 Td5 SW Epsom Green
I believe the engine and gearbox will come from bmw, although the box is a zf box it will probably come with all the bmw software and calibration to match the engines and as I said in the prototype it had a bmw selector. Similar to how it is the the new Morgan’s and the Toyota supra. I am surprised there’s no option for a basic van type engine from another manufacturer. The beemer engines are great, powerful, refined but complicated, great for the 4 wheel drive enthusiast but not so great for utilities and farmers etc and expensive to repair. I’m suprised there’s not a basic engine option. I wonder what else bmw has offered to sell them? The last generation infotainment system for the top end models perhaps?

I don’t see getting parts from other brands as a bad thing. Those bmw engines have had generations of developments. I’m quite happy to see the best parts picked from many manufacturers. I’d rather them source things like engines from a big brand rather than trying to quickly develop one of their own.
Post #858613 28th Sep 2020 6:44pm
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ickle



Member Since: 22 Jul 2010
Location: South Vendee
Posts: 1785
France 2008 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 CSW Alpine White
I think very few of the worlds manufacturers actually manufacture anything, probably more accurate to call them designers and assemblers.

Keith
Post #858616 28th Sep 2020 7:06pm
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Julie



Member Since: 07 Oct 2017
Location: Nantes
Posts: 496
France 2012 Defender 110 Puma 2.2 SW Keswick Green
Supacat wrote:
What car company directly manufactures all components? The new Defender appears to be built of components entirely bought in, with the exception of the engine. I'm not sure that can be seen as a negative?


I would not qualify this as a negative issue. It's an up-to-date concept. Car manufacturers even share platforms and whole cars (e.g. Renault Twingo = Smart). The Grenadier is going to be developed by Magna Steyr (Puch) = G wagon

"The idea to create a new-old Defender-style vehicle was launched merely three years ago, when the rough outline was sketched out in the same London pub. With the backing of chemical giant Ineos, the Grenadier was engineered with the help of Magna Steyr in Austria, which builds the Mercedes-Benz G-Class, ..." https://www.autoweek.com/news/trucks/a3307...-left-off/

But this was not the Defender concept we've been talking 'bout and that Land Rover have continued for so many years.
Post #858631 28th Sep 2020 8:40pm
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Huttopia



Member Since: 23 Feb 2016
Location: West Midlands
Posts: 1972
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Anyone who went on a tour of the Defender production line will accept that it was mostly bought in and bolted together, so no different to Ineos. Chassis made by x, engine made by y and all just assembled in the factory. BMW engine and ZF gearbox a solid combination - how many BMW drivers do you see on the hard shoulder?
Post #858648 28th Sep 2020 10:00pm
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AndrewS



Member Since: 10 Apr 2007
Location: Hereford
Posts: 3708
United Kingdom 2013 Defender 130 Puma 2.2 SW Rimini Red
I do a lot of travelling and I think ive seen more BMWs broken down than any other manufacturer. 130's have feeling's as well you know Smile
Post #858653 28th Sep 2020 10:47pm
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Huttopia



Member Since: 23 Feb 2016
Location: West Midlands
Posts: 1972
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/\ We must travel different roads!
Post #858657 29th Sep 2020 4:58am
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Supacat



Member Since: 16 Oct 2012
Location: West Yorkshire
Posts: 11018
United Kingdom 2013 Defender 110 Puma 2.2 XS DCPU Keswick Green
So it's simultaneously
Julie wrote:

the Grenadier’s business model :
A few grey haired men meeting in a conservative pub deciding that they could turn back time.


and

Julie wrote:
I would not qualify this as a negative issue. It's an up-to-date concept.


Confused
Post #858688 29th Sep 2020 8:37am
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diesel_jim



Member Since: 13 Oct 2008
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Posts: 6093
United Kingdom 2006 Defender 110 Td5 SW Epsom Green
^^^^ Rolling with laughter
Post #858715 29th Sep 2020 9:51am
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