 | Home > General & Technical (L663) > Driven: New Defender - On & Off Road. Is it a Pretender? |
 
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| LEZ Member Since: 22 Oct 2015 Location: London Posts: 167  
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I really wanted to buy the new 90 Defender and waited years in anticipation for its release, I was even one of the first (according to my Dealer) to place a pre-order deposit, and I am fortunate that I can easily afford one, but reading some of the teething problems owners have experienced with the new 110 and mainly the fact that the loadspace on the 90 does not fold flat, I have decided to put my purchase off for the time being in the hope that JLR will sort a few things out.
Having been a forum member for many years, it does sadden me to read people knocking each over over their personal opinions. However, on the up side, the 2015 90 Landmark model that I have are now for sale for more than I paid for it 5 years ago, I guess the same will certainly not apply to a 2020 Defender in 5 years time. |
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19th Aug 2020 5:32pm |
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| redneckwilly Member Since: 17 Aug 2020 Location: Colorado Posts: 12 
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"but reading some of the teething problems owners have experienced with the new 110"
That's surprising, because historically Land Rover is known for their high reliability! 
Actually, I have owned an LR3 & LR4 (Disco 3 & 4), and had minimal issues. The reliability was pretty good (but maintaining was not cheap). I do think being the first model year, the new Defender will have some bugs to work out, but that is not unusual for any new car. Maybe the Defender will grow on you and any bugs worked out over the next year! 
P.S. In the Bronco forums people are also complaining how the rear seats do not appear to fold flat. Ford should have the configure and price builder up by next month so I am looking forward to seeing how a comparably spec'd Bronce stacks up against the Defender. |
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19th Aug 2020 9:00pm |
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| Chicken Drumstick Member Since: 17 Aug 2020 Location: Near MK Posts: 754
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I'm not sure why people take it so personally and get so upset when someone clearly has a different view.
I thought I explained it rather clearly. But for clarity, it is about expectations of a 70 year legacy. A Defender (or its predecessors) have had a very specific icon status as a particularly type of vehicle. With a very consistent look and feel about them. The new model clearly lacks this and is not an evolution, but a revolution. Therefore just looking at the vehicle for its own merits and ignoring its name, I scored it 7.5 out of 10. Which had it not had the blind spots and the gearbox issues would probably have been more like 9 out of 10. But there is no denying on any level that it bears next to no resemblance to its forebears on any level. Spec, ability, design or looks. Therefore as a 'Defender', no I personally do not feel it does a very good job at all. And completely misses the mark with what I would personally expect from a vehicle bearing this name. Had it been built more akin to the old model or more similar to a G-Wagen/Wrangler/Grenadaier/Jimny, then things may have been different. But the brutal truth is, they didn't! So I scored how I felt it was appropriate, as after-all, it was 'my' review. Feel free to review yourself and give a different score if it bothers you so much.
Sadly you are completely wrong. The "Land Rover" saw a replacement as early as 1958, only 10 years after introduction. The Series II is significantly different to the original. This model also then was continued to be updated with the IIa and III. These might have been more minor changes, but show continual development. Then there was the Stage 1 also. And of course the Ninety/One Ten era. Which was a completely new platform (chassis), axles, body, drivetrain and engines. It might have looked similar, but it was completely different. This design also then evolved over the years with many changes with different drivetrain, different engines, different body panels, chassis revisions, entirely new chassis for some models and body changes. Again these might have been more evolutionary, but they were continual right up until 2007 being the last of the major updates. Don't let the looks fool you. Other car makers have often done similar, but they tend to make their models "look" more different to show the progress. Land Rover simply did not. Which often leads to the false conclusion that it didn't change at all. And couldn't be further from the truth. If Land Rover had stuck with the "Series" naming. The last 2015/6 Defender would have been a Series 9a or 10.
While this is true for some models. It is very untrue for others. And especially vehicles which are usually seen as iconic and aren't just a hot version of a current saloon/hatchback model. In the 4x4 market, the Wrangler is the prime example and usually a direct comparison to the Defender. Due to them sharing their origins with each other. The current JL still looks very very "Jeep" or "GP1" like. And shares much design language and ethos with its predecessors. And it is still designed to do the same sort of thing as the model has been doing since the 1950s. If you want a non 4x4 example. Take a look at the MX-5. The current car is a very good modernisation of the original 1989 model. Which itself was at that time a modernisation of an MGB/Lotus Elan. These aren't the only ones. There are lots of other examples.
The 911 probably isn't a very good example. As it really isn't twice the size, it is just bigger than the old model. But relatively speaking against its current peers and competition, it is actually still small and compact in the modern world. As for air cooled engines. Don't be daft, that was simply a physical limitation and being unable to meet emissions and mpg requirements. Yes it was a "trait" lost. But a bit like points and carbs, was only ever a very minor aspect. But ultimately, the 911 today is still very much what the 911 has always been. A performance sports car, aimed at being fun to drive. And it has retained key aspect such as the engine location and general styling. i.e. there is no confusion when you see a 911, you know what it is. It was and still is an icon. Because Porsche have been clever enough not to tamper with the formula too much. Of course, Porsche have had other aspirations over years. But instead of raping the 911 name for a few quick sales. They used new and different names for products which don't meet or match the 911 formula, such as Boxster, 928, 944, Cayenee, Panamera.
Why? Surely feed backing all points of view are good for JLR. It's a bit like a survey companies get you to do. While the marketing manager will want only glowing reviews. They are pretty pointless, the valuable reviews are the ones offering constructive criticism. As they can examine this and see if they actually are happy with what they are doing or not.
So basically you are saying you are an advocate of free speech, so long as those views align with yours and you don't want to hear anything you disagree with? Maybe take it all a bit more lightly. Does it really matter if someone else doesn't like something as much as you?
Who said it was a surprise. And just because there has been forewarning, that doesn't not mean I should have to change to my views and opinions on it.
That is a rather low IQ statement. |
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20th Aug 2020 9:32am |
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| Chicken Drumstick Member Since: 17 Aug 2020 Location: Near MK Posts: 754
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Where did I even hint at 'hate'? Let alone use the actual word? |
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20th Aug 2020 9:34am |
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| Slideywindows Member Since: 09 Sep 2016 Location: North Essex Posts: 1286 
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I would give up, Chicken Drumstick.
There will not be a meeting of minds. If enough UK and American Discovery owners like it, as well as others new to the Brand, then it will sell OK. If it was a true and accurate replacement for the classic Defender (in all its multiple roles and adaptations) then Jim Ratcliffe would not be investing millions in trying to build an actual replacement. His money speaks louder than opinions. As far as hate is concerned, I don't hate the new SUV, why should I? I am just totally and utterly disinterested in it. What I do hate is JLR's casual betrayal of so much of what Defender stood for, in pursuit of a new and fickle market. It's not that they couldn't do it (Ratcliffe will prove that) but that they chose not to. It is too early to see whether that decision will come back to bite them, |
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20th Aug 2020 10:23am |
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| ChasingOurTrunks Member Since: 19 Aug 2020 Location: Canada Posts: 89 |
Thanks for the write up, Chicken Drumsticks.
First post here but I figured I would say hello because I’m firmly in the market that JLR seems to have targeted with this rig, and I though I could offer my perspective as to why I’m keen on it. The old Defender has a lot of personalities. From what I can read online, the old Defender was regarded as a great farm and utility truck by some, and as a great off-roader by others. But there’s a third personality of the Old Defender - one that it had BECAUSE it was such a good utility truck and good off road — and that’s of a wild-animal chasing adventure vehicle going to the back of beyond, either driven by adventurers or NGO types. This flexibility of application means that what a Defender “is” can vary widely, depending on what a person’s experience with the old Defender was. And for me, my only experience is seeing them on TV doing wild adventures around the world. I never saw the old defender as a farm truck. Over here, farm trucks are literal trucks — 1/2 and 3/4 ton pickups. And the Defender isn’t really a rock crawler or mud machine (two activities that were the main definition of “off road” for most of my youth; 4x4 touring wasn’t a big part of the “off road” community until fairly recently as far as I can tell). This is probably because of how rare the old Defenders are over here, but this market is dominated by Jeeps and old Toyotas that have been modded to the gills to tackle technical terrain on a weekend jaunt — not necessarily multi day expeditions into the unknown, but the tackling of an off road track just for the fun of the technical driving. But, whenever I pictured a Defender, I pictured an ideal adventure vehicle. Put another way, if I asked 6 year old me to draw a farm utility vehicle, I’d probably draw a picture of a truck. If I was asked to draw a 4x4, I would have drawn a lifted Jeep with massive tires. But if you asked me to draw a picture of an explorer’s truck, guaranteed you would get something close to the Defender. And since children are terrible artists it’s 50/50 if it would have been closer to the old Defender or the new one! 
Again, the old Defender’s utility and off road capability from the factory is what made it a great adventuring vehicle. That’s my use case — long distance overland 4x4 touring. I’ve got hundreds of thousands of kilometres travelling this way from Mexico to the Arctic Ocean and most places in between. Ive had the luck of being able to rack up those kilometres in some of the best vehicles on the market for that type of thing — Jeep rubicon, full size pickups, and more recently a mid-size pickup — and I’m brand agnostic. I’ve also never owned a modern JLR product. So what are my needs? 1) Seats for a family INCLUDING a dog or two. The Defender with the jumpseat is big enough for a family of four and two dogs WITH space for cargo. There are no other vehicles in what I would call this “mid size” class that can do that. (The Defender is closer in physical dimension to a mid size truck, as opposed to things like Suburbans or Expeditions, which are based on full size truck platforms, which I find a bit too big for my travel style). 2) Payload to bring supplies for the aforementioned family. This was a huge limitation of the Jeep. The Rubicon is the king off road, but the JK had a payload of only 850 lbs. People alone take up the majority of that, before you even include camping gear. And while a person can go ultralight in that regard, you also have to consider things like bumpers, winches, and roof racks — common touring accessories — which chew up weight fast. Most of the kitted out Jeeps seen online that are nicely equipped for touring rigs are well past GVM. The Jeep is great for singles or couples, but the payload is it’s Achilles heel. 3) Safety. Despite all the fantasy of narrowly escaping danger on some adventure like an action hero, the fact is the biggest risk on a 4x4 tour is a run of the mill traffic accident. The Jeep and some trucks are not as safe as a typical JLR vehicle, and I expect the Defender to get 5 stars. 4) Off Road capability. It’s gotta be good enough to get through. It does not have to be able to drive over Mount Everest before even engaging lockers, it just needs to work well enough to get through obstacles. There was a video the other day of a Jeep Gladiator and a new Defender; the new Defender was not set up for off road properly in my books, but it was still at the top of the mountain next to the Gladiator. That’s good enough. Ideally, this is available from the factory. My motto is “keep it simple, keep it stock”. I also explore terrain that needs modest ability - so things like lockers and good off road suspension as OEM equipment are valuable to me. 5) Published off road specifications. Can anyone tell me the wading depth of a Chevrolet Colorado? What about the roof load? This is about me as an operator knowing what the vehicles design limitations are and planning accordingly. Not having this information forces me to rely on “it should be OK” and that’s not confidence inspiring when far from civilization. 6) Global Platform - on long tour, nobody is going to doing a “ship of Theseus” on the side of the trail with all the spare parts they brought along, so global dealer and parts support is important. The same defender I buy in Montreal is in the showroom in Mongolia, and JLR deals with the headaches of customs and importation. Imagine losing your window glass in Botswana and having to get a new screen shipped from North America or Europe on your own. That sounds a lot trickier than stopping into a dealer and saying “new glass, please”. This criteria eliminates a lot of obvious choices. The Bronco is North America only. Hilux aren’t available here, nor are land cruisers. The Toyota models we can get here are only available in a few other countries. Even our Ford Ranger — which uses the same platform as the Australian ranger — has different drivelines. 7) Wagon configuration. My current rig is a dual cab, and the wagon is preferable. It’s tough to fully seal the back end, so gear is always dirty. That’s fine for a weekend but for a month, it wears on a person to be dirty all the time. 8 ) It’s got to be comfy to travel in for 1,000 Km per day. An ergonomic issue on the first hour can exacerbate to injury by the 25th day on the road. I want to be able to talk to my travelling companions on the journey (an unpleasant task in the Jeep because it was so loud on highways). All passengers need to be able to get cool or warm air — as the driver of my Jeep, on all winter adventures I’d have to toss a blanket on my lap because my left leg would start to get very cold when the temps dropped below -30 Celsius. There’s lots I can do to adjust comfort which is why this is so low on the list. 9) Not stupid expensive. I can get a Defender spec’d how I want for a little bit more money than a Gladiator spec’d how I want, and the Defender is proportionally nicer for the cost so it’s actually good value. We are not talking about a G-wagon here, which costs more than my house and because of that barrier to entry, is not a contender for me. So the above is my criteria, and I think the Defender is currently the only vehicle available for sale in Canada that checks all the boxes of an adventure vehicle for me with so few compromises. And to be clear, EVERY platform has some compromises, and sometimes those are big ones (like me not fitting comfortably in an Old Defender without my arm out the window!). My wife and I are currently planning a larger tour to Argentina and beyond, so we very much fit the “adventure vehicle market”. 95% of people who buy a Defender may only partially fit that use case, or find joy in driving a vehicle capable of that kind of thing (which is totally cool and true for Jeeps, BMW motorbikes, and so many other adv-spec’d vehicles That are really never used for their designed purpose), but it strikes me that this is the “personality” that JLR focused on for the new Defender. And it seems like they did at least an OK job, maybe an excellent one - time will tell. It’s not a farm truck, and it’s not a mudder or rock crawler. It doesn’t look like the old Defenders. But it is shaping up to be a great Touring machine for the 21st century, which is a carry-on for what made the Defender iconic in my books — the old defender was not iconic because of farms or rock crawling, because it was always a runner up in doing those things to other vehicles. But for a long time (until Toyota stole the crown, and as I said I can’t get a land cruiser here), there was no vehicle that was better for an expedition into the unknown than the Defender, and that’s what this new rig appears to be a carry on of. In that specialization, some will say they’ve let the Defender legacy down. Others will say they’ve taken what the Defender was perhaps best known for in many ways, and they created a modern version of that. And that’s why I want one, but reviews like Chicken Drunstick’s are fantastically useful - those mirror size/position observations are super valuable. What works great for me at over 6’ might not work for my shorter wife on a long tour, since we split driving, and I might not have checked that without this review. Same goes for the gearbox behaviour, which I hope was a one-off but is something I’ll be keeping an eye on. Thanks for the detailed write up. |
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23rd Aug 2020 5:57pm |
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| Chicken Drumstick Member Since: 17 Aug 2020 Location: Near MK Posts: 754
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Thanks for your comments. I hope you find what you are looking for. As a touring vehicle, the new Defender seems good, but very much in the same vane as the Discovery 3/4 and not hugely dissimilar to the current D5 and RRS in design and capabilities. To pick up on a few of your points. The traditional Defender is arguably very very similar to a Jeep (i.e. a Wrangler). With very similar capabilities and design. And tbh, I'm not all that sure they would look that different if being drawn by a child.  Click image to enlarge Click image to enlarge The real key difference is market. There really is no such thing as an off road recreational vehicle in the UK or even in Europe. All proper off roaders have links to military and/or agriculture. And while the Wrangler is sold here, it is in relatively tiny numbers, especially in years gone by. In the UK we also have very limited access to the countryside and there really is no such thing as wilderness. This tends to mean, 4wheeling is very different compared to North America. And hence no real 'recreational market' for it. Thusly, the Defender was much more heavily biased to the utility sector in various form, including agriculture. Interesting back in the 1940's Willys also came up with the idea of the "AgriJeep". A way to try and sell the model to civilians after the way. The idea being a better road going tractor. The history of this model is very interesting. But very short lived. The AgriJeep was a complete and utter failure. The "Land Rover" as we all know, was a vision from the Wilks brothers who had an old army Willys Jeep on their farm and thought it was brilliant. So the Land Rover was born, with pretty much the same idea and intention as the AgriJeep which predated the Land Rover by 3-4 years and was already dead as a concept. I think it was the Wilks that said "And PTOs everywhere..." meaning the Land Rover was intended for the farm as a road going tractor. And the first Land Rover, Centresteer was even built on the Jeep platform (again linking how similar and close the Wrangler and Defender are). But as history tells us, the idea of the Land Rover being a road going tractor completely failed, just like the AgriJeep. But the vehicle found a niche as a general utility vehicle, heavily used on farms instead. It is for this reason the traditional 90 has a good payload ability and can tow 3500kg. Which is comparable to many larger pickups available in North America. It's also worth noting the Defender was also available in 3 wheelbases, 90, 110 and 130 models (92.9", 110" and 127"). Giving it similar length to many "farm" trucks. In the UK, a common sight (and still pretty common, even today, 5 years after production ended), would be a Land Rover like this:
Very popular with any hill or sheep farmers across the UK. A 90 pickup with an Ifor Williams top. This "look" has been a mainstay in rural areas going back to the 1950's, as the Series II/IIa/III were all used in the same way, and look very much the same, with the same sort of abilities. Countryside Rangers for years used vehicles like these, as do many tree surgeons:
Another common site across Britain would be things like this: Click image to enlarge Ultimately I don't think anyone really hates the actual 'physical' vehicle of the new Defender. We just object to it being called a Defender. Because, as you can see from the photos above. It is just so far adrift from what the model was and had been for the best part of 70 years. |
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24th Aug 2020 12:43pm |
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| redneckwilly Member Since: 17 Aug 2020 Location: Colorado Posts: 12
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In the main professional press reviews, most, if not all, are enamored with the New Defender and because of its design and capability they are now calling the old defender the pretender. These are from the unbiased reviews.
300
On a side note at exactly is chicken dumbstick doing will all those  i the back of his defender? Are they more than just friends? None of my business really.  bhp |
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24th Aug 2020 1:25pm |
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| LEZ Member Since: 22 Oct 2015 Location: London Posts: 167
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If sheep are involved, don't forget your wellies:)
I would never consider carrying sheep (dead or alive) in my existing 90, let alone a new 90 which I intend buying. |
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24th Aug 2020 1:57pm |
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| Tim in Scotland Member Since: 23 May 2007 Location: The Land that time forgot Posts: 3753 
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Unfortunately most professional motoring journals also don’t want to upset car makers by feeding us anything other than what the company press dept has fed the journalists in press packs. Many journalists go for the party at launch time, quick drive in some sunny place and business class flights there and back - there’s no way they are going to bite the hand that (literally) feeds them. That’s why reviews like Chickdrumstick’s and others have written here are so important - they don’t owe any car manufacturer anything for a meal. Regardless of whether or not you agree with what is written by these guys, it is important info uninfluenced by the manufacturers. Hence the popularity of all those new car and car comparison channels on YouTube. I think most of us who have bought a new Defender are especially grateful to the Land Rover dealer in Denver CO for lending out a slightly modified (some trick item in the suspension) 110 First Edition and showing those of us who don’t have access to play on the routes that demo car went on what the car is capable of in comparison of a competitor and a highly modified predecessor Land Rover. Same with the comparison with the New Defender and the rather more expensive and capable GWagen video filmed in Spain. I would imagine very very few owners will ever do anything like that with their own car so it’s good to see warts and all tests that indicate what the car’s abilities are or aren’t because for sure Land Rover would not put out a test like that as a corporate communication. Pangea Green D250 90 HSE with Air Suspension, Off-road Pack, Towing Pack, Black Contrast roof , rear recovery eyes, Front bash plate, Classic flaps all round, extended wheel arch kit and a few bits from PowerfulUK Expel Clear Gloss PPF to come 2020 D240 1st Edition in Pangea Green with Acorn interior. Now gone - old faithful, no mechanical issues whatsoever ever but the leaks and rattles all over the place won’t be missed! |
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24th Aug 2020 2:43pm |
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| Chicken Drumstick Member Since: 17 Aug 2020 Location: Near MK Posts: 754
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As Tim alludes too. Most Journo's do this as a profession. And upsetting a car maker by being honest, would be a sure way to not get invited to review their products in the future. Let's also not forget that for the South Africa reveal of the Defender. JLR had an expenses paid safari holiday (vacation) given to the journalists for free, the unspoken agreement would be, you must rave about and love our product! |
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24th Aug 2020 3:07pm |
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| Tim in Scotland Member Since: 23 May 2007 Location: The Land that time forgot Posts: 3753
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I believe that they also would have had to submit their reporting to the JLR promotional/press/publicity dept fir vetting before publication and they had to comply with an embargo on publishing. The only people who let the cat of the bag where JLR’s own PR people posting teasers on FB and Twitter about the cars they were permitted to take home during lock down......... when no one who had actually paid for one was allowed delivery.... Pangea Green D250 90 HSE with Air Suspension, Off-road Pack, Towing Pack, Black Contrast roof , rear recovery eyes, Front bash plate, Classic flaps all round, extended wheel arch kit and a few bits from PowerfulUK Expel Clear Gloss PPF to come
2020 D240 1st Edition in Pangea Green with Acorn interior. Now gone - old faithful, no mechanical issues whatsoever ever but the leaks and rattles all over the place won’t be missed! |
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24th Aug 2020 4:24pm |
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| 22900013A Member Since: 23 Dec 2010 Location: Oxfordshire Posts: 3150 
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I doubt I'm alone in wanting to see proof of that. Links please? 2011 110 USW 1973 Series III 1-Ton 1972 Series III 1-Ton Cherrypicker 1969 IIA 1-Ton 1966 IIA 88" |
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24th Aug 2020 5:22pm |
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| ChasingOurTrunks Member Since: 19 Aug 2020 Location: Canada Posts: 89 |
That’s true. I was less interested in the opinions of the presenters of the various Namibia Defender videos than I was with seeing it in action (some vids were better at that then others). But, from what I understand this red carpet treatment is the norm for new vehicle launches; Andrew St. Pierre White of 4xOverland has a video on this topic where he tells the story of a Mitsubishi launch he went to in similar circumstances. That being said I do have to give Kudos to Top Gear’s Namibia segment with the new Defender. The music and cinematography was a joy to watch and the film captured that “explorer vibe” I was talking about in my other post. This is, of course, my emotion-based opinion of that particular vid; others may have reacted quite differently. |
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24th Aug 2020 11:19pm |
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