 | Home > General & Technical (L663) > Driven: New Defender - On & Off Road. Is it a Pretender? |
 
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| RDR Member Since: 27 Apr 2018 Location: Derbyshire Posts: 592  
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Ah those stains look very much like the ones I got in my original d3 S spec drove me mad. They dry and disappear in the main but then you get what almost looks like salt marks and need extraction cleaning, drove me mad first year whilst it was new just gave up fighting it after that. 110 MY23.5 X Dynamic HSE
RR MY23 HSE PHEV D5 MY19 HSE - Now Sold D4 MY16 HSE Luxury - Now Sold D4 MY12 HSE - Gone D3 MY06 S - Gone but not forgotten |
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28th Aug 2020 4:12pm |
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| ChasingOurTrunks Member Since: 19 Aug 2020 Location: Canada Posts: 89 |
Thanks for the warm welcome! I struggled a bit with the quote function, so apologies for any formatting issues, but I think I’ve covered your main points and observations below. We do tend to pack light - our Jeep WrangLer (JK) had a payload of only 850lbs, most of which was taken by accessories and people. We used to take a backpacker mentality to our 4x4 touring — simple and light is the name of the game. We enjoy a few creature comforts - like a shower system, awning with a room, etc. — to make long distance tours more bearable and safe, so that’s why we upgraded from our jeep to our current Ute for extra payload, but overall personal kit is extraordinary lightweight. For context, we regularly did long trips (10,000 kms +) in our Jeep with two big dogs, two adults, and all our kit. Our longest was actually 3 adults, 1 big dog, and a month exploring Alaska and northern Canada (about 15k kilometers in 30 days). We were heavy on this trip and others — sometimes by quite a bit, but after we started paying attention we would rarely be more than a few hundred pounds over even with all of our kit. Our current vehicle gives us 1500 lbs payload which is perfectly adequate for minimalist personal kit and a few creature comforts. A bit more would give us more breathing room and allow us to live in relative luxury! However I do hear what you’re saying and most people underestimate how quickly payload disappears. Adding off-road front and rear bumpers, a winch, a roof rack and tent, and you’re 80% if the way to the max payload of the Rubicon — that’s before people, clothes, food, and most importantly beer for the campfire. If you start talking about solar with a dual battery system, maybe a fridge or something, the GVM is blown away on most modern 4x4s on the North American market. That’s why I’m keen on the 1850 lbs from the Defender. PLENTY of room to work with that.
This motto speaks to needing to modify a vehicle for basic off-road performance. As in, I would typically rather buy the Jeep Rubicon Unlimited — with factory lockers and other off road goodies — than the Wrangler Sport, which is the same base vehicle, but the Sport will require me to turn a lot of wrenches to get it to the level of the Rubicon, and that introduces a lot of variability. Sure if I go ARB everything I’ll probably be OK quality wise, but most people do SOME cheap mods, and those cheap mods tend to cause headaches. (Cheap as in poor quality, I don’t just mean the cost). And worse, some folks will take something already very capable and modify it dramatically for aesthetics — which is fine, and their choice, but in my experience does hamper reliability and and the ability to repair the vehicle far from home (A common aftermarket brand in North America may be very hard to come buy down south, as compared to OEM). You are quite right that the new Defender has a lot of complex pieces, but I’m less worried about that because my complicated Defender will be more or less the same as everyone else’s complicated defender, which means there’s a body of knowledge out there for support. A better way to look at this would be that I shy away from excessive customization of a vehicle to get it where I need it (which is basic off-road touring performance). Simple in this context = as close to the original tested and quality-controlled design as reasonably possible. The other reason for the keep it simple keep it stock ethos is what I’m finding I enjoy more lately — My current rig needs a lot of modifications to make it touring-ready for my needs, and while I enjoy that process, every weekend spend in my garage is a weekend I’m not spending on a trip, and as my time has become more limited (job and family commitments), I’m wanting a turn-key option more and more.
I used to think that, alas, that’s not the case for many in North America — for example, it appears that Toyota USA won’t tell you the wade depth of a Tacoma. They will caution against using it in those environments where such numbers are necessary. No problem getting that info for a Hilux, but Toyota suggests not getting water over the wheel hubs for the Taco — even with the TRD package. That’s not a wading depth, thats a “how to drive through puddles” guide!  . What that tells me is it’s just not designed for water crossing or proper off-road use where water crossings are a possibility. That doesn’t mean it can’t do it, but it’s not designed for it, which means you are taking your chances with it.
My GMC — which is very similar in a lot of ways to the Isuzu D-Max (same chassis) — is the same story, no published wading depth. It’s sold and marketed as an off-roader with the “All Terrain” package, but still - no wading depth, and when I asked GMC corporate I got the same answer as many Toyota fans have gotten. And it matters — the Isuzu is a fantastic 4x4, with I believe an 800mm wading depth, and a casual observer might think “Well if the Isuzu and the GMC/Chevy are more or less the same truck, they should have the same wading depth”. Not so - the Chevy Colorado is known to trigger major fault codes if too much water enters the power steering control unit which triggers a limp home mode, if the car will run at all. That unit is low enough that you won’t get even close to 800mm before it’s flooded. If they had decided to design the vehicle to wade, like a proper off roader, this unit would be sealed or relocated. As with most 4x4s, they are designed for people who like the 4x4 aesthetic, but have no real need for true 4x4 design like waterproofing of electronics. A google search will result in a lot of forum threads of people asking the question, with a ton of responses saying “I drove through the Pacific Ocean from San Fransisco to Hawaii no problem” — but anecdotes on the internet don’t fill me with confidence the same way a manufactures’ published specs would, as that tells me the vehicle is actually designed and intended for that kind of use. Similarly, I’ve had trouble getting things like static and dynamic roof loads...I have to trust the rack manufactures, who more often than not have little to no connection with the OEM engineers. Sure, the rack might take a thousand pounds — but what about the roof that the rack is bolted to? The Bronco, the Wrangler, and the Defender now all offer that info so hopefully it catches on in the North American market.
Absolutely — the thing for me is that it’s about options. No matter what vehicle I choose to tour in, I ALWAYS have the option of phoning home for parts. I always run the risk of being stranded worlds away from any help. i don’t always have the option of finding a local dealer. A Defender provides that extra option in more cases than other brands. Few other rigs I can buy in North America that would be suitable for this kind of travel do so.
Not from what I can see — the P300 Defender may have an accessory or two available elsewhere that is not available here, but the core vehicle is the same (Same engine and trans, same body, same electronics systems, etc.) worldwide. I may be wrong though, I’m still learning and evaluating this rig.
Always a risk, yes, but as above, it’s about having options. Going into the local dealer and saying “One New Glass, please” and having it work out is great. If it doesn’t work out, I’m in the same boat as I would be in with any other 4x4, and looking at getting one shipped from far away. Might as well go with the one that has a better chance of having things work out. Global parts availability is another issue — if there’s a lack of Land Rover Defender glass everywhere, with a 2 month backorder, then I sure hope I like Botswana since it looks like I’m stuck there for a while  . I don’t know enough about JLR as a company though to know if this wait time for parts is common, but it would be a factor to consider. I’m hopeful that before I buy, these things will prove popular enough for things like spare parts to be more common/reliably available. I wonder if it will be easier to get new window glass for the new Defender or the new Grenadier? Volume and buying power suggests that the Defender will be easier, but time will tell — both platforms have a notable potential weak point here.
This may be true inso far as IP ratings go, but in my experience there is a world of difference in touring in a Ute versus touring in a Wagon in terms of cleanliness. Having done both for hundreds of thousands of kilometres, it’s palpable — even if the containers are airtight (which makes for a huge improvement, granted!), you still have to grab them and move them, rummage through to find stuff, etc. Those containers in the back of a Ute mean that hands get grimy, and then you touch your gear, and before long everything is just a bit dirty. In a wagon, the amount of dirt and debris ingress into gear is substantially less. It’s not zero, it’s just less. One day on gravel in a Ute brings nearly the same mount of grime and dirt into my gear as a week or two on the road in a wagon. The exception may be utes with full canopies — Utes with tubs and tailgates are very hard to seal, but replacing them with a one piece aluminum canopy may deal with this dust issue entirely.
Depends on where I’m going. If I’m going home to visit my extended family, that’s an 18 hour trip on the highway, with some minor off-road to nearby campsites in the evening. Usually, I’ll try to break that run into two days — one heavy day of 11 to 12 hours, and one light day where I’m in before lunch, to maximize the social time with my family, before doing the opposite on the reverse trip. I’ve also done 1,000 kms on gravel — I was on my motorcycle at the time, but my wife was in our old JK. We went from south of Coldfoot to Prudhoe Bay and back to south of Coldfoot in a single day (Alaska). There were good reasons for this at the time. Our preferred touring distance is actually half this amount per day — sometimes we want to stay an extra day in a neat or interesting spot and then have to make up time the next day. Being able to double our mileage in a single day comfortably gives us a lot more flexibility on a trip. The new Defender looks like it’d be great at the 11-12 hour highway day, and it also looks great at the 1000 kms Alaskan trip too. The jeep was much more of a compromise in general for those longer runs. The point is, it very much depends on the trip and the environment, but it’s gotta be comfortable all around. I can do 1,000 kms in our jeep, so most vehicles would reach this bar for us, but that’s not a pleasant thousand kilometres. Conversation is limited due to wind noise in the cabin, and in the winter, my left leg would get very cold as the door is not insulated. But, music and a blanket solves those problems; I’m not looking for “perfect”, just adequate, so most vehicles fit the bill here for us if they are capable in other ways. I’m not honestly sure I’d like to do it in an old Defender though — I don’t have any real experience with them, but not fitting quite right in the drivers seat seems to be a common issue, and I’ve never heard of someone loving them for their comfort!
Very true - I’m quite curious about this fabric roof option and how that will go together. I do think that the Unibody may not lend itself to things like pop-tops nearly as much as the old Defender. I prefer roof tents, but cannot deny this is one area of compromise (amongst many others) with the new Defender versus the old one.
Good to know, and thank you for pointing that out to me - between this and the brake failure issue, I’m glad that I’m not in a rush to buy one. I expect growing pains with any new model vehicle. The real question now will be what JLR does about these growing pains — do they handle it well, or do they let it fall by the wayside? Time will tell! Thanks for the great questions/observations and giving me the space to clarify my perspective. As with all things on any of these boards, the above is just my experience and perspective as it relates to the kinds of trips I like to do, and I definitely appreciate it’s not the same for everyone! I also know tone can be hard to read through text, but I appreciated your cordial and welcoming tone in your message and I’ve done my best to reciprocate (if I have failed in any way to do that I apologize! — There’s few things I like better than good conversations about cool rigs, especially when everyone’s coming at it with friendly disagreement) |
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31st Aug 2020 6:29pm |
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| Tim in Scotland Member Since: 23 May 2007 Location: The Land that time forgot Posts: 3753 
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It’s because of other models from LR where they have to disclose things like the safe working load of the recovery eyes that were not available to owners here that we now know the strength of RRS and Discovery 3/ 4/5 recovery eyes and now we have seen that both the bolted on and screw in eyes for New Defender are both rated to 6.75 tonnes and at that they shouldn’t deform enough for the screw in eye to deform more than 13mm. If it weren’t for having to disclose this to USA markets we here in Europe would have had a lot of difficulty to get it out if LR. They are too scared of being sued through the courts through non-disclosure / product liability in the States for millions in compensation not to disclose these things worldwide now. Pangea Green D250 90 HSE with Air Suspension, Off-road Pack, Towing Pack, Black Contrast roof , rear recovery eyes, Front bash plate, Classic flaps all round, extended wheel arch kit and a few bits from PowerfulUK Expel Clear Gloss PPF to come
2020 D240 1st Edition in Pangea Green with Acorn interior. Now gone - old faithful, no mechanical issues whatsoever ever but the leaks and rattles all over the place won’t be missed! |
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31st Aug 2020 7:09pm |
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| spudfan Member Since: 10 Sep 2007 Location: Co Donegal Posts: 4702 
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Re above post by "ChasingOurTrunks", well reasoned out.
 1982 88" 2.25 diesel
1992 110 200tdi csw -Zikali 2008 110 2.4 tdci csw-Zulu 2011 110 2.4 tdci csw-Masai |
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31st Aug 2020 9:59pm |
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| ChasingOurTrunks Member Since: 19 Aug 2020 Location: Canada Posts: 89 |
I think that's a fair assessment Tim -- the litigious nature of society these days certainly plays a huge part on corporate decision making. What I struggle with is that SOME North American 4x4s clearly offer this detail, while others choose not to; litigation might be the risk managers excuse, but I think a lot of it is driven by dollars, cents, and marketing. For example, the Ford F-150 Raptor, the Dodge Ram Powerwagon, and the Jeep Wrangler/Gladiator provide wading depth, and they are selling like hotcakes and not getting sued into oblivion. But the Chevy Colorado and Ford Ranger -- even in their most off-road worthy spec -- do not offer this information, even though they do provide this information in international markets where an almost identical truck is sold. I think the 4x4s like the Colorado and Tacoma are falling victim to Marketeering over Engineering. They are sold as "Lifestyle" trucks, designed for people who want to give the impression of an adventuring, outdoorsy lifestyle. And they do what they need to for 99% of the folks who buy them -- hauling a mountain bike to your local curated trails or taking off for a weekend in a state forest with manicured campgrounds doesn't exactly require expedition-quality vehicles! And there's the rub -- 99% of what these "Lifestyle" 4x4s do can be done nearly as well in a Subaru or a Rav4 or I dare say even a Honda Civic, but those models don't come with that same 'image' and so folks flock to the lifestyle 4x4 segment. Another example of this is tow ratings -- I never tow off road, so I've not really considered it in my previous post, but it illustrates the point. A properly designed 4x4 will de-rate the tow ratings for off-road conditions. I can't find any examples of this de-rating going on for domestic vehicles here (I've heard, but have not verified, that Land Rover does provide this information for some models, and I understand it's standard practice for Military vehicles in NATO forces). My truck has a 7500lbs tow rating, period -- no mention of on or off road, or de-rating that based on conditions. And that's how you get a bunch of trucks looking like this, because the forces and stressors created in off-road towing are FAR greater than on road:  Click image to enlarge As you can see in that pic, even "true" 4x4s are still prone to this "Lifestyle" identity issue -- the Gladiator is a true 4x4, but to my knowledge it does not de-rate towing for off road. This puts owners in expensive positions, thinking their car is rated for activity X, only to find it fails horribly. I can't imagine dropping $80k on a Gladiator and having it bend because the specs said I could tow 7000 lbs, and then also having insurance tell me to take a hike because they won't cover off-road conditions, but that's a situation many have found themselves in. Then there's those of us who actually DO want a properly engineered 4x4, where the specs and testing clearly communicate the vehicles operational limits. If a user fits this category, their choices are woefully limited depending on the user's criteria. In my case, as I've said, the towing thing is irrelevant because I don't tow off-road -- but I do wade through things, and I keep stuff on my roof, so I focus on that. So, my thinking is that we know manufacturers CAN give us the 4x4s we truly want -- vetted, designed, and tested to be 'fit for purpose' machines, with all the user specs published and available -- but I think they choose not to. It's cheaper to show a Lifestyle 4x4 doing cool off road stuff in a commercial and adding fine print of "professional driver closed course, Do not attempt or warranty will be void" than it is to design it to do that stuff to begin with, knowing that the majority of them will never see those conditions. And to give them their due -- a Lifestyle truck today is in almost every case a better 4x4 than a "true" 4x4 of 20 years ago. The vehicles themselves aren't bad - they just aren't quite as good as they could be, and that's a shame for folks like me! |
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2nd Sep 2020 7:19pm |
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| Tim in Scotland Member Since: 23 May 2007 Location: The Land that time forgot Posts: 3753
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Yes, and LR specifically use images and video in their adverts of a 110 and a 90 towing some pretty big off-road caravans/ trailers in off road situations but only show a max tow capability of 3500kgs in technical stats which makes one wonder if you REALLY could tow such trailers off-road without severe damage to the underpinnings. While I’ve hauled out stuck 110’s from mud pools without damage in my 90 I wouldn’t want to inflict the shock loads of a loaded off-road caravan on it’s relatively new galvanised chassis.
Here in Europe there have been a spate of unladen Nissan Navarras breaking their chassis.......... on the road! Pangea Green D250 90 HSE with Air Suspension, Off-road Pack, Towing Pack, Black Contrast roof , rear recovery eyes, Front bash plate, Classic flaps all round, extended wheel arch kit and a few bits from PowerfulUK Expel Clear Gloss PPF to come 2020 D240 1st Edition in Pangea Green with Acorn interior. Now gone - old faithful, no mechanical issues whatsoever ever but the leaks and rattles all over the place won’t be missed! |
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2nd Sep 2020 7:48pm |
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| ChasingOurTrunks Member Since: 19 Aug 2020 Location: Canada Posts: 89 |
I'm not an engineer, but I'm reasonably confident they aren't supposed to do that! 
My most loved way of travelling is by motorbike (Triumph Tiger is my 'main squeeze'), and I find that the kit I bring on my motorbike is basically the same as the kit I bring in my 4x4. The 4x4 has bolt-ons that make it more comfortable day to day (running water via a small pump and bucket for occasional showers, roof tent & awning), but I think "living out of a pannier" is good practice for any adventure touring via 4x4. I've never felt like a caravan or big trailer would improve any of my remote trips. (I do recognize some folks need them -- if a person has accessibility issues or needs something like a CPAP machine, or has a family that won't join them otherwise, or a whole host of reasons -- then I'm 100% supportive of caravans. They aren't for me though, and I really wish our vehicle manufacturers would get on board with managing performance expectations a bit better for off-road use) |
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2nd Sep 2020 11:38pm |
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| Supacat Member Since: 16 Oct 2012 Location: West Yorkshire Posts: 11018 
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I've missed that ~ where did it come from? |
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3rd Sep 2020 12:42pm |
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| Tim in Scotland Member Since: 23 May 2007 Location: The Land that time forgot Posts: 3753
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Either in Autocar Magazine last couple of weeks or on the PowerfulUK video Pangea Green D250 90 HSE with Air Suspension, Off-road Pack, Towing Pack, Black Contrast roof , rear recovery eyes, Front bash plate, Classic flaps all round, extended wheel arch kit and a few bits from PowerfulUK Expel Clear Gloss PPF to come
2020 D240 1st Edition in Pangea Green with Acorn interior. Now gone - old faithful, no mechanical issues whatsoever ever but the leaks and rattles all over the place won’t be missed! |
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3rd Sep 2020 12:44pm |
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| Tim in Scotland Member Since: 23 May 2007 Location: The Land that time forgot Posts: 3753
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Sorry I accuse PowerfulUK and Autocar incorrectly, It was here
https://www.drive.com.au/new-car-review/20...iew-123415 Click image to enlarge Pangea Green D250 90 HSE with Air Suspension, Off-road Pack, Towing Pack, Black Contrast roof , rear recovery eyes, Front bash plate, Classic flaps all round, extended wheel arch kit and a few bits from PowerfulUK Expel Clear Gloss PPF to come 2020 D240 1st Edition in Pangea Green with Acorn interior. Now gone - old faithful, no mechanical issues whatsoever ever but the leaks and rattles all over the place won’t be missed! |
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3rd Sep 2020 12:56pm |
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| ChasingOurTrunks Member Since: 19 Aug 2020 Location: Canada Posts: 89 |
That's pretty incredible and very good to know -- Meanwhile, on the Lifestyle 4x4s, many of the eyes that appear to be recovery hooks are in fact "tow hooks" rated only for flat towing on pavement, not for off-road snatch-based recoveries. I wonder how many near-misses have occurred in the backcountry with a broken tow-hook flying through the air on a snatch recovery? I know of at least one -- me!
If each eye is 6.5 tonnes, its conceivable one could even air-lift these rigs -- 6.5 tons straight pull is a lot different than vertical pull, though, so I don't know if it actually could be done so....someone else can go first though with their rig, I'll watch -- don't worry if it goes wrong you have 7 tonnes of strength for it to bounce a bit. Just hope it goes wrong in the first 10 feet or so of lift, otherwise it'll be going fast enough to do damage! The idea of air-lifting a Defender is a bit ridiculous,but so is driving the old Defender up a hydroelectric dam, which frankly was more of a winch test than a Defender test, but still pretty neat to see! It's an unlikely application, but not unheard of when touring. For example if I was this guy, I think I'd prefer them crane my rig onto the boat than to do what he's doing so if it's an option, it's another point for the Defender! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0eMfFDHYic Edit: I tried to embed the vid, but it looks like forum software does not support that feature yet. <iframe></iframe> |
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3rd Sep 2020 3:06pm |
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| Tim in Scotland Member Since: 23 May 2007 Location: The Land that time forgot Posts: 3753
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Works ok for me
I think you copied and pasted from the address window but I used the “share” button on YouTube, it might have worked if you had click the {img} button before the link and {/img} after - BTW I used the curly brackets on my keyboard instead of the square ones [] so I didn’t get an error showing Pangea Green D250 90 HSE with Air Suspension, Off-road Pack, Towing Pack, Black Contrast roof , rear recovery eyes, Front bash plate, Classic flaps all round, extended wheel arch kit and a few bits from PowerfulUK Expel Clear Gloss PPF to come 2020 D240 1st Edition in Pangea Green with Acorn interior. Now gone - old faithful, no mechanical issues whatsoever ever but the leaks and rattles all over the place won’t be missed! Last edited by Tim in Scotland on 3rd Sep 2020 3:29pm. Edited 1 time in total |
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3rd Sep 2020 3:23pm |
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| ChasingOurTrunks Member Since: 19 Aug 2020 Location: Canada Posts: 89 |
Thanks Tim. Must have been a classic PBK error, which is the most common error in the tech world.
(PBK = person behind keyboard!) I tried using the "Code" function and embedding from YouTube as I didn't realize the IMG tag would work to embed a video. Good to know for next time! |
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3rd Sep 2020 3:29pm |
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| zilch Member Since: 11 Sep 2019 Location: Whitsundays & Sydney Posts: 820 
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Tim, i have put up a video on rrsport.co.uk years ago of my RRS dragging a fully laden camper trailer with all our gubbings through a very deep creek crossing in Cape York on the old Telegraph Track (OTT).. Nothing untoward or impact to the vehicle on the OTT and that trailer came in on or around the 2 ton mark .. Overall the Old Telegraph track is challenging for a vehicle that is not towing, let alone one that is dragging two tons I assume generally the underpinnings are reasonably tough on LR's based upon my experience of my current beast. For example that trip the vehicle covered over 2000Ks on corrugations, fire trails, national park trails, and did about 8 creek crossings.. all with a two ton anchor  yet another pommie bar steward down under
MY20 110 P400 SE Defender MY10 3.0 RR Sport |
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3rd Sep 2020 11:52pm |
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