 | Home > General & Technical (L663) > 2020 Defender main discussion thread |
 
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| Grenadier Member Since: 23 Jul 2014 Location: The foot of Mont Blanc... Posts: 5829   
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Couldn’t agree more Supacat. The problem is that the target market for the recent series of models produced by LR is geared heavily (and I’d suggest primarily) towards looks/image, and this is being pushed hard by McGovern. As such there seems to be an apathy towards, or even a willingness to accept, bad workmanship and constant breakdowns/recalls, as the look and image the car portrays is too important to the owner and there is no real substitute. A fully loaded RR or RRS is still considered by many to be a more niche, exclusive and premium vehicle than one of the equivalents made by Merc, Audi, BMW etc. I think they are seen as ‘quality‘ brands, whilst LR is seen as ‘luxury’. In design terms, in iconic terms, in desirability terms, etc etc, I don’t think many people would put an Audi Q7 (however good the build quality and however reliable it may be) above an equivalently priced RRS. Much like an Audi A8 will never supersede a Lambo even though under the skin they’re the same and Lambo has a reputation for reliability equal to that of LR.
So, as can be seen by many of this forum’s members, people keep going back, year after year, to LR, despite its failings. And as there is no real alternative (and for some off-road ability and towing ability are also important) they will continue to do so and hope they’ve picked up a ‘Monday morning‘ produced vehicle and not one rushed through on a Friday arvo. So the pond will never empty, the brand cachet means too much to too many. But what JLR could have done is saved millions by not creating unnecessary models (such as the Velar) and reinvesting that cash into QC. And also they could accept that working (behind the scenes) with BMW to get electrics right, and some good German manufacturing principles in place, would have also been a worthwhile partnership. But no, the ego that is McGovern is obsessed with design above engineering and, mainly, doing it all themselves. Until he goes, this stupor will continue whilst other equivalent manufacturers improve their products year on year. I mean, even Aston Martin have seen the light and headed to Germany for their electrics and engines, and that’s saying something. Monsieur Le Grenadier I've not been everywhere, but it's on my list..... 2011 Puma 110DC - Corris Grey |
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9th Aug 2020 7:26am |
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| Rashers Member Since: 21 Jun 2015 Location: Norfolk Posts: 3508  
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Land Rover owners. Just like some football supporters. Year after year of heartache, no Championships, no Cups, poor performance, just about scraping in at the end of the season to avoid relegation, the Managers and Players talking the talk but not delivering results and still the lemmings go and pay extortionate prices for a season ticket even though at the bottom of their hearts it will be another season of the same (it’s no coincidence my local team is Norwich City - bless you Delia Smith and they didn’t scrape in to avoid relegation this year
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Does the above not sound like a JLR owner, always optimistically hoping for something better with the next new model, but practically no hope of this becoming reality?? For the record, I would choose the Q7 every time rather than a RR although it hurts me to say that. Image is nothing when you are parked up on the hard shoulder waiting for recovery. Grenadier, Supacat, I think what you said above is spot on  |
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9th Aug 2020 7:54am |
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| 100inch Member Since: 15 May 2012 Location: Brunswick Posts: 411  
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Honestly, do you really think people who buy LR products for years (28 years for new LR/RR's in my case) have this attitude? If JLR products wouldn't make financial sense and provide me plus family with safe and reliable travels, I wouldn't buy them full stop and have only one or two Series for the collection. That is why the New Defender looks like it does cause it is build for people who buy....m |
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9th Aug 2020 8:07am |
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| bankz5152 Member Since: 02 Feb 2017 Location: South London/North Kent Posts: 2173 
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Got my 3 hour test drive booked. Might do some local lanes and some shopping!
 Click image to enlarge Instagram @defender_ventures Empire Tuning - Agent |
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9th Aug 2020 8:19am |
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| Supacat Member Since: 16 Oct 2012 Location: West Yorkshire Posts: 11018 
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I'd be curious to know if there's anything it the small print of whatever you sign to take a test drive that mentions off road use?
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9th Aug 2020 8:26am |
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| Rashers Member Since: 21 Jun 2015 Location: Norfolk Posts: 3508
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You have to remember 100inch, we are all, well nearly all of us JLR owners.
My Defender has been the only vehicle I have ever owned that has been newish that hasn’t lost money and depreciated like a sinking stone so in that respect, it has made absolute financial sense. But the reliability and the corrosion and the rattles are something which no one is proud of. Any non- LR owner would assume that over the years, any decent manufacturer would have ironed out the issues and improved their design to make the vehicle better. Galvanising the chassis would have been a start, but that never happened. If all you ever do is go back and buy LR vehicles, you will never know how good any other vehicle are? Bit like going on holiday to the same place every year. You may be very happy on holiday, but there may be a destination that would be better and more enjoyable for your vacation. You will never know. I don’t think anyone on here 110inch, is criticising you for being loyal to the marque, it’s just their vehicles could be a lot better? I like this to being a TVR owner in the 80’s. They were magnificent motors, but their build quality was shoddy at best. But TVR owners wouldn’t have a bad word said about them. Sadly we all know what happened to TVR. Rover had the same build quality issues. They also went the same way. I don’t think any of us want to see JLR go to the wall. It’s just difficult to watch the way things are going. |
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9th Aug 2020 8:34am |
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| bankz5152 Member Since: 02 Feb 2017 Location: South London/North Kent Posts: 2173
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Well it says go anywhere in the add... And green lanes are public roads, not off road! Instagram @defender_ventures
Empire Tuning - Agent |
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9th Aug 2020 8:39am |
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| Grenadier Member Since: 23 Jul 2014 Location: The foot of Mont Blanc... Posts: 5829
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No, not those who’ve bought them for years. My comment related to the new target market as exemplified by the current variety of models, their looks, spec etc. For most people ‘safety’ and financial sense’ would be Japanese or South Korean, if we’re really being extreme, or one of the German ‘big three’ if brand/luxury matter. There’s not a single LR model that is better built, more reliable, has a better engine, handles as well, cheaper, has lower running costs etc etc than an equivalent BMW or Audi. Not one. So, in Europe (maybe it’s different down under) financial and safety sense for a luxury SUV would never have LR as the number one choice. So why do people by them? I maintain that currently it’s cachet/image. I.e. If Joe Bloggs had £75k for a well specced SUV and was down to a choice between an Audi SQ7 and RRS, why would they go for the more expensive, less reliable, higher servicing cost, less frugal, less spacious (but arguably better handling) LR? It can only be one thing, brand/image because in no other way does it make sense. As I said, this is current buyers. Target market. The man/woman who might not have even considered a 4x4 before the explosion of models 10-15 years ago. LR does not make any sense (IMHO) beyond image. Want Safety And financial sense, buy Kia. Want Luxury level, euro brand safety and financial sense, buy Audi/Merc/BMW/VW. Want luxury brand cachet, LR/RR trumps them all..... Clearly this is very simplified and there will be old school LR fans who don’t care about the image, but do care about safety, towing, 4x4 heritage etc. But watching the people who use LR products across Europe (and clearly in the Alps it’s a prime demographic for JLR and the German big 4 to target) they are not you, or that other l9ng-term LR fan anymore. In the main. Not exclusively, but in the main. And, I bel8eve, in the lines of sight for McGovern and LR. The models, the looks, the gizmos etc say as much. Monsieur Le Grenadier I've not been everywhere, but it's on my list..... 2011 Puma 110DC - Corris Grey |
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9th Aug 2020 8:43am |
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| Buz1500 Member Since: 07 Jul 2020 Location: Cumbria Posts: 150
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I’ve now had my P300 SE for 2 weeks and here’s a summary of my feelings / experiences so far.
No issues found apart from the water drip issue on the seats when opening the doors. Now treated the seats with the Gtechniq I1 fabric protection. It’s a very relaxing and comfortable drive, very similar to my previous L405 AB. Loving the auto-hold handbrake function. Comes on automatically on steep inclines and can be activated at traffic lights etc by a firm press of the foot brake. Saves you sitting with your foot on the brake all the time. Had a drive to the Yorkshire dales a few days ago, 5 adults plus a dog in the back. Plenty of room and comfort for all. The new infotainment system is very good and easy to setup. Having a tow bar fitted next week in advance of our first caravan trip in the Defender on the 23rd. Looking forward to seeing how she tows our 1800kg van. |
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9th Aug 2020 8:54am |
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| 100inch Member Since: 15 May 2012 Location: Brunswick Posts: 411
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Rashers,
I considered a lot of other brands, private and commercial plus I driven (mainly) Toyota all over the world in places like Highlands/ PNG. When I was partner of a motorsport logistic company we got demo cars supplied by all major manufactures including G-wagons. Interesting is that even those so called 'quality-reliable' brands failed... surprise surprise. Sure JLR had some stuff ups but it is obviously much more fashionable to moan about it. It will be interesting to see how many people on here actually going to buy a Grenadier, G-Wagon or Bronco....And yes you are right that most users here are JLR owners but not all are equal. |
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9th Aug 2020 9:01am |
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| 100inch Member Since: 15 May 2012 Location: Brunswick Posts: 411
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You would be really disappointed to see my 2018 RRS travelling the Outback then.... probably seen more off road than most Defenders on here. Or when I drove an Evoque in Icleand. In winter. I normally check out other peoples LR's here and this often tells the story how they use their car and how much 'old school' they are. Or at least think they are. |
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9th Aug 2020 9:09am |
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| Supacat Member Since: 16 Oct 2012 Location: West Yorkshire Posts: 11018
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Well I don't - but you are not the target audience for the new defender: "The new Defender, whenever it is released, has to appeal to a whole new generation of people." Gerry McGovern https://www.cardesignnews.com/designers/de...09.article And in terms of what Grenadier has said, I think it paraphrases very well what JLR have been saying openly for several years: "Design is a key differentiator in the marketplace, while being a conduit to communicate what a brand stands for. That will always be the case, irrespective of what’s going on in terms of new technologies" Gerry McGovern https://www.cardesignnews.com/designers/de...09.article And the killer quote: "We live in a world now where image is everything. Once things become comparable between one manufacturer and another, whether it’s technology, quality, precision, reliability, connectivity—whatever it is—once those things become comparable, what are you left with? You’re really left with the brand and its essence. It’s design that communicates what that essence is." Gerry McGovern https://news.artnet.com/art-world/land-rov...ng-1334564 It's sad to see a brand where the engineering excellence was the key differentiator, the thing that was front and centre of everything they did, now being seen as nothing special but only comparable. The truth really is out there if you have the time and inclination - it's all hidden in plain sight!
I'm unsure, but is that a dig at those of us keeping our hands in our pockets? I'm happy to pull further quotes but they don't make the potential new buyers for the new defender look good (and here I would draw a distinction to old, or existing JLR product owners) - it's about a short term happy feeling akin to a new saville row suit, yacht, handbag, pair of Jimmy Choos. In fact, if the words weren't in quotes from the man himself, you'd think it was a parody. |
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9th Aug 2020 9:17am |
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| Supacat Member Since: 16 Oct 2012 Location: West Yorkshire Posts: 11018
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Dare you ask the Dealer on collection? |
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9th Aug 2020 9:21am |
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| J77 Member Since: 04 Nov 2019 Location: Fife Posts: 3406 
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Nothing in my dealers loan car form that mentioned off road use, all it says it can’t be used for taxi/private hire, racing etc. |
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9th Aug 2020 9:23am |
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