 | Home > INEOS Grenadier > Main Grenadier discussion thread |
 
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| jst Member Since: 14 Jan 2008 Location: Taunton Posts: 8027   
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Its 4 link in the video, same as most ultra4 vehicles. Cheers James 110 2012 XS Utility 130 2011 M57 bespoke Camper 90 2010 Hardtop 90 M57 1988 Hardtop |
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11th Mar 2020 8:33pm |
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| spudfan Member Since: 10 Sep 2007 Location: Co Donegal Posts: 4660 
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Regarding the above, didn't LR exit this type of market because they could not compete on price? One would have thought that the 109/110/ HiCap pickup would have been ideal for the South American and African markets. I think if INEOS want to target these and other markets like South Asia they will need to be able to compete on price. No one knows what the price point of GRENADIER will be but from what has been surmised it will be more expensive than the last Defender. Also a pickup version for overseas markets will be a prerequisite. You would think that a basic pickup would be fairly inexpensive to produce and some of these markets might not have the same safety standards that Europe has. So you could end up with a very basic specification for overseas markets. 1982 88" 2.25 diesel 1992 110 200tdi csw -Zikali 2008 110 2.4 tdci csw-Zulu 2011 110 2.4 tdci csw-Masai |
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11th Mar 2020 9:09pm |
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| Supacat Member Since: 16 Oct 2012 Location: West Yorkshire Posts: 11018  
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Where do you get it that the Defender never made a profit? With regard to niche markets within the JLR portfolio then the Defender was not the smallest, in 2015: Jag XE 23,621 Jag XJ 12,536 Jag F type 11,662 Defender 23,127. In 2019 4 of Jag's models sold significantly less than the old Defender was averaging - @20,000 per annum. The point being 20,000 retail sales in a "niche" market can be profitable and is certainly sustainable over a long period of time; and if it's not then JLR should have been investing it's limited resources into sorting out it's worst performing models; not killing it's iconic model. Unless the agenda was not driven by purely business interests? Last edited by Supacat on 12th Mar 2020 9:16am. Edited 1 time in total |
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11th Mar 2020 9:21pm |
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| Bluest Member Since: 23 Apr 2016 Location: Lancashire Posts: 4209 
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Spudfan - I forget the exact % (I want to say 20%, but probably wrong), Ineos have definitely said the Grenadier will be above the price of current double cabs, like Hi Lux. I don’t know how that compares to bigger things like the Ford F-150 or 79 series ‘Cruiser! But sounds like it would be comparable. 2007 110 TDCi Station Wagon XS
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11th Mar 2020 9:43pm |
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| Grenadier Member Since: 23 Jul 2014 Location: The foot of Mont Blanc... Posts: 5813  
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I get special treatment because I’m, um, a Grenadier.  Monsieur Le Grenadier
I've not been everywhere, but it's on my list..... 2011 Puma 110DC - Corris Grey |
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12th Mar 2020 6:51am |
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| Grenadier Member Since: 23 Jul 2014 Location: The foot of Mont Blanc... Posts: 5813
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A few thoughts:
First, I don’t think brand awareness will be a problem. If you have a passionate (and Uber-wealthy) backer, with the brand power of his/her main company, and you create a quality product that provides genuine appeal (which this should, based on engineering quality) you should find buyers. At a global scale, look at what Musk/Tesla have achieved, also from scratch. Further, should he do it properly, this vehicle could hold great appeal to numerous buyers who would look for a fleet. The MOD for starters. Indeed, I’m pretty sure I heard that the only reason the Defender had any financial viability, was the MOD contract. In this regard, with the number of vehicles bought from outside the LR stable by the MOD to replace models like the Snatch because of the problems in Afghanistan, (shortly before the announcement that production would be stopping was made), I wonder if this impacted JLRs decision to scrap the Puma? Second, I don't think LR binned ‘our’ Defender purely on price/profit. I think there was a ‘vision’ led by McGovern to create a brand which looked the same across the LR range. All brands are doing it. Chop off everything from behind the a-Pillar and almost all Audis/BMWs/Mercs/Porsches look the same across their range. JLR were after the same and Defender wasn’t exempt with McGovern at the wheel. Audi Q8:  Click image to enlarge Audi Q3: Click image to enlarge Evoque: Click image to enlarge Velar: Click image to enlarge And whilst it is clearly more ‘robust’, you can see the DNA in the New Defender: Click image to enlarge But, if they did the same as Merc, and recreated the Puma Defender, the lineage between all models in the brand looks suddenly out of kilter and clearly that would freak McGovern out. He wants everything to look as ‘HE’ has envisioned it, stuff history or icons. Merc on the other hand clearly understood the recent renaissance in things that are bespoke/artisan/unique/original/authentic and kept their Icon going at all costs: Click image to enlarge Monsieur Le Grenadier I've not been everywhere, but it's on my list..... 2011 Puma 110DC - Corris Grey |
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12th Mar 2020 7:25am |
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| PCM Member Since: 25 Jan 2019 Location: North East Posts: 874
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Genadier. Great post and a beauty of a real defender in the last shot.
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12th Mar 2020 10:16pm |
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| What puddle? Member Since: 25 Oct 2013 Location: Reading Posts: 952
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I'm a simple guy - Mrs Puddle says I'm very simple, and this is a genuine question for anyone who actually knows the economics of car manufacturing:
If Suzuki can build a small, simple 4x4 for less than £20,000 and make a profit (building it in Japan, not Slovakia), why can't LR? It's a serious question. Why can't LR make a 4x4 (let's call it the DC100) for £25,000 and not make a profit on it? If they can, why haven't they done it? Now left. |
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13th Mar 2020 6:21pm |
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| lohr500 Member Since: 14 Sep 2014 Location: Skipton Posts: 1316 
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I would love to know the answer as well.
I suspect it is because they are so stuck up their own a**** that they think a higher volume, lower priced vehicle will dilute their brand value and rob sales from their overpriced designer boutique models. And their dealer network wouldn't like it because they have become addicted to charging a king's ransom for a basic service, rather than a sensible amount for what amounts to an oil and filter change. I keep banging on about it, but even my fully loaded 5 door Jeep Wrangler Rubicon looks a bargain compared to a new 110 Defender. In a stock trim showdown, I'd put my money on it outperforming the Defender in most real life off-road conditions, apart from headline towing weight capacity. |
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13th Mar 2020 6:47pm |
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| Supacat Member Since: 16 Oct 2012 Location: West Yorkshire Posts: 11018
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Simple answer is they have limited capital and limited resources ~ they've prioritised what they think will make most profit, not per vehicle, but in total and this is aligned to their move to become a "premium" brand.
It's not helped that plans for more models have been postponed as those that have come on line have not sold the volume forecast and thus there's not the capital in the business to move through the product portfolio. Don't forget that they spent to create the infrastructure and employed a large number of staff to be able to produce 1 million vehicles per annum. Those capex items are now quite a drag on the finances of the business as they're producing below 500k per annum. |
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13th Mar 2020 6:49pm |
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| DSC-off Member Since: 16 Oct 2014 Location: North East Posts: 1403 
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Simple answer is they have limited capital and limited resources ~ they've prioritised what they think will make most profit, not per vehicle, but in total and this is aligned to their move to become a "premium" brand.
^ Exactly this. Back in 2015 it was possible to buy a basic Defender for around £20k+vat. That was the old, inefficient, labour intensive design that was oh so expensive to make. There's no reason why an equally basic, modern, efficient design can't be built for the same cost today, plus a bit for inflation. Also back in early 2014 a base model Freelander (2wd) could be bought for £22k. Had this still been an option in late 2015, I would have bought one. However, by then the Freelander3 (aka Discovery Sport) had been launched with a starting price of £31k, or a 40% increase! With the new Defender prices being around 100% more than the model it supposedly replaced, the primary reason is maximised profit. Nobody would would accept a 100% increase in the price of a Ford Fiesta or VW Golf, but LR seem to get away with it. |
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13th Mar 2020 10:35pm |
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| ZeDefender Member Since: 15 Sep 2011 Location: Munich Posts: 4731  
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At least the obscene price of the new "jelly mold" gives me a solid excuse to keep paying out to repair mine
Tell someone you love them today because life is short.
But shout it at them in German because life is also terrifying and confusing... |
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14th Mar 2020 6:11am |
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| What puddle? Member Since: 25 Oct 2013 Location: Reading Posts: 952
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Thanks for the replies. I'm very much hoping that Jim Ratcliffe will go for a small initial profit to keep the price down while the brand builds.
For me, the new Defender is absolutely absurd (too plastic and dull), and the price equally so. The new Bronco looks ok, I guess, but is a bit too American. The Wrangler is something I would have bought, but the price is just too high. So I'm left with (possibly) Toyota's hinted 4x4, or the Grenadier. The Grenadier appeals much more as a real 4x4, but the price is going to be the key. If it's more than £30,000 then it will have to look and be great to justify that. I'm guessing it's going to be £35,000 and that's ok as long as it ticks all the boxes. They have already managed to p*ss me off a little, as I entered their competition for a suitable name. I poured in so many names - I even surprised myself how good they were, seriously (they just kept coming to me). So all they have to do now is over-price it and I'm gone. Now left. |
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14th Mar 2020 9:13am |
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| DSC-off Member Since: 16 Oct 2014 Location: North East Posts: 1403
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Your thoughts, budget and vehicle options are very similar to mine.
Perhaps Ineos will look to expand the brand if the Grenadier is successful. A smaller utility 4x4 to sell in bigger volumes would be the logical next model. |
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14th Mar 2020 9:31am |
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