Quote:

The EU, taken as a whole is the UK’s largest trading partner. In 2017, UK exports to the EU were £274 billion (44% of all UK exports). UK imports from the EU were £341 billion (53% of all UK imports).

Lateralus wrote:

Zed wrote:

There will always be difficulties discussing Mr Trump in a civilised environment because his extremist views provoke a reaction.

Can you give me some examples of extremist views President Trump has?

Quote:

The EU, taken as a whole is the UK’s largest trading partner. In 2017, UK exports to the EU were £274 billion (44% of all UK exports). UK imports from the EU were £341 billion (53% of all UK imports).

Zed wrote:

Lateralus wrote:

Zed wrote:

There will always be difficulties discussing Mr Trump in a civilised environment because his extremist views provoke a reaction.

Can you give me some examples of extremist views President Trump has?

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/0...mp;gwt=pay

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/don...60bf777e83

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/a...82736.html

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2018/11/mi...t-language

davew wrote:

Quote:

The EU, taken as a whole is the UK’s largest trading partner. In 2017, UK exports to the EU were £274 billion (44% of all UK exports). UK imports from the EU were £341 billion (53% of all UK imports).

You'd have thought that the EU would want to keep trading with the UK given that we import more than we export to the EU. Germany, in particular, is on the brink of a recession at the moment and is forecast to go into recession again this year and that is not going to be helped by a lack of a trade deal with one of their biggest export markets. It's also worth noting that the EU, though obviously a significant part of our exports, is not the majority of our exports.

There is also no differentiation in those figures with "double accountancy" where goods are exported and imported multiple times across the border currently, something that will presumably decrease if tariffs are imposed each time. It's unclear what proportion of the exports and imports are of that nature and how much of the EU exports to the UK originate outside the EU and only come through that route due to the current arrangements. In simplistic terms, I bought some parts for my VW van recently from a European distributor (in Germany). Looking at the packaging, the parts were made in the UK, shipped to Germany to a warehouse and then sold back to me in the UK. I wonder where that transaction fits into the import/export figures ? Again though we have no idea how much of our exports outside the EU originate with imports from the EU so it may be misleading. Ironically we'll get a better understanding of that if we leave the EU.

In the race to find the most disastrous possible outcome possible and then over analyse it to pieces on the TV, someone on the TV the other day was banging on about a no deal brexit resulting in a lack of bananas, I have to say that came as a shock to me as France isn't the first place I think of when it comes to growing Bananas in fact, in the list of top banana producing countries in the world not one EU country is mentioned but apparently the UK relies on the EU for it's banana imports. Ironically an ITC report actually showed that of the fruit we import (the majority of which is from outside the EU) we actually export bananas and oranges, among other fruit, to the EU ! Why would you let that get in the way of yet another doomsday report on the TV though. Brought to you by the impartial, national, publicly funded UK broadcaster that announced the UK had voted to remain in the EU after the referendum. The same ITC report seemed to show that we import a lot of vegetables from the EU but also export about the same amount to the EU. It also suggests we import a huge amount of potatoes from France.... and then export them to Ireland ! I wonder, when you take away the "convenience" of moving goods through the UK, how much of the items we "import" is actually just passing through.

Away from the restriction on trade imposed by the EU the UK can look to new markets. New Zealand, for example, a country we had to turn our back on when we joined the EU and we can also look to their experiences in setting up free trade deals with new trading partners. Something they had to do after we abandoned them due to EU rules and regulations.

We may have to look at NTBs and tariffs because, currently our NTBs are all imposed on us by the EU the UK has the chance to open up new markets outside the EU with countries and goods that have been previously excluded for no good reason. Leaving the EU gives the UK a freedom to build trade links across the world. Who knows, maybe we'll even be able to get decent tyres again ! NTBs such as CE marking will be optional although I assume that unless there is a specific reason not to, the UK will continue to align with them to simplify import/export so maybe we will have to put up with rubbish tyres anyway.

Given the current EU stance I expect we will drop out without a deal, if we leave, because the EU want the UK to choose between "no deal" and staying in the EU without representation. Ironically, Ireland are the biggest block to a deal and, at the same time, are predicting that a no deal Brexit will put Ireland into recession. I suspect the EU and Ireland are assuming and hoping that forcing a "no deal" will actually result in the UK postponing article 50 indefinitely. If they're honest, that is pretty much the intention of Westminster and those who don't want the UK to leave the EU. If you cannot accept a democratic decision then simply stall it and hope it goes away or try and force subsequent votes until you get the result you want.... I seem to recall the EU has a history of that particular tactic.

I worry for what the UK will become after/if it leaves the EU. I've always had a bit of a patriotic streak, too many war movies perhaps, maybe trailing around Germany as a kid when my dad was serving in the army. As long as I can remember I've been proud of the UK, proud to be a part of a country with a strong heritage, history and culture that has never willingly bowed down to external tyranny (leaving aside the internal ones !). The "remain" view seems to be that the UK is incapable of making it's own decisions, surviving without somehow being propped up by the EU. To suddenly find out that a good majority of the people resident in the UK have no pride in their country and no positive view of it's capabilities saddens me. It's ironic that the most rabid "remainers" are also Scottish nationalists, I've still not figured that one out. If we leave the EU and the "remainers" and "leavers" refuse to "pull together" to support the UK then, frankly, the remainers will prevent us moving forward and, in the end, will fulfil their own worst prophesies. If we don't leave the EU, what does that say about the democratic process and our political systems moving forward ? The wounds will probably take some time to heal, either that or we'll end up in a second civil war.

Finally, the UK has been a reluctantly accepted member of the EU club for a lot of years now. Originally we were blocked from joining because we were seen as a financial threat to France in particular and the EU was, after all, set up for the convenience of France and Germany. The conditions for joining included reducing our agriculture and fisheries output so that France could compete and we had to pay an ever increasing "membership fee" to make sure other countries could compete with the UK by using UK money to subsidise them. For all the talk of our "partners" and "friends" in the EU, I think we've seen from the Brexit process that nothing has changed since the early days. The EU has shown it's true colours and anyone who considers it's members as "friends" of the UK should have had a reality check. The EU is still a protectionist bullying organisation with aspirations of a "1000 year empire". The thought that a country might not want to be part of their empire reveals their true nature and it isn't a pretty sight. That in itself makes me think more and more that, regardless of the short term pain, the UK is better off walking away.

Perfectly put  Ray
My build thread
http://www.defender2.net/forum/topic17615.html

Birdy wrote:

"Never mind Dunkirk"

Dunkirk? Isn't that the place where the French held off the Germans - at a cost of 16,000 killed and over 30,000 captured - to give the remnants of the British Army time to run away? Leaving half their country occupied by Nazis? The British only returning when the Americans thought they'd better step in to avoid the whole of Europe being overrun by Russia?

There are many ways of interpreting history...

Peter